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The Haight Street Underworld
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SFist Tonight
We've all been bummed out here over the sudden demise of Adam's Block. It was fun, legal, and helpful. And now? Well, this happened.
Here's the thing about Adam's Block recent drama. A group of posters on an "art" site called 12 oz Prophet (the size of a standard spray paint can, get it?) allegedly forced him to apologize for his site by threatening someone close to him.
Not cool. And illegal.
Adam, it seems, printed out the entire thread about him last night and then scanned it to make pdfs, which are available here. The comments -- which SFist will pore through today and this weekend, because there are many of them -- show some of the people that went after him. If they're smart, which we assume they are, they won't. These threats, while unacceptable, seem empty.
Does this all boil down to a group of graffiti fetishists who want their art production done off-camera? Perhaps. Some anti-big brother statement? Not likely.
Update: Another piece to the story: It all started off with the idea in the first page of the Prophet thread that it would be cool to go to the intersection and get some 12oz Prophet sign in camera view -- which C.W. Nevius sort of mentioned after he took the raw material he got from sites like this and SF Citizen and riffed on it -- somebody spray painted and then got caught a few days ago within the AB periphery. Then, Adam took down the clips showing the 12oz message and then they cried "free speech," or whatever.
After the jump is one of the, well, nicer comments thrown Adam's way.
shai hulud
"The Dirty Dozen Society"
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After looking at the website, I'm not sure if these guys are part of it. They strike me more as punks and wannabes. Adam's stance is a little vague. If Adam ever does decide to take them up on their offer and meet in person, he should take someone along who can explain things to them more clearly. I'm certain with the application of correct logic, these kids will see their mistake.
What sucks is that this whole thing started cause some d-bag scrawled a few letters in the middle of the street. And Adam (rightly) called them out on it.
Scrawling illegible/ugly shit on streets, sidewalks, and walls isn't art.
It's pretty despicable that him and his girlfriend have been threatened over this.
Wait ... he was harassed and threatened while living on one of the worst corners in SF? I am shocked I tell you - shocked! Next we will discover that drug sales and prostitution occur in this very same neighborhood...
Wait ... some young male dominated internet community contained many postings threatening others? Also very shocking, very very shocking!
Didn't the tenderloin's junior Panoptic eye get the basic internet safety course -- Don't put your real name and address up on the internet.
P.S. 12 oz Prophets is a lame name -- it takes at least 32 oz's of most things to make me even 1/2 way prophetic.
Wait ... he was harassed and threatened while living on one of the worst corners in SF? I am shocked I tell you - shocked! Next we will discover that drug sales and prostitution occur in this very same neighborhood...
Wait ... some young male dominated internet community contained many postings threatening others? Also very shocking, very very shocking!
Didn't the tenderloin's junior Panoptic eye get the basic internet safety course -- Don't put your real name and address up on the internet.
P.S. 12 oz Prophets is a lame name -- it takes at least 32 oz's of most things to make me even 1/2 way prophetic.
The application of correct logic is the LEAST effective way to show anyone their mistakes.
you know, if the camera had jack shit to do with liberty or security the 12oz prophet guy (who sounds like he smokes a lot more than 12oz) might have a point.
But since it's essentially art, which as a tagger he should be able to appreciate, he has no point at all. It's an observation of a slice of life. It may be a camera pointed at a particular area, but it's still more of an artistic statement than an authoritarian statement.
But, most graffiti people don't consider the application of their freedom to other people's freedoms. They're vandalising in the first place in some name of rebellion or art or liberty and such, and don't bother to think of how what they do actually affects anyone else. Then the guy's surprised when Adam isn't necessarily considering their freedoms when he puts a camera up? Where's the logic?
It's a camera in a public place. It's not an invasion of privacy, since you have none if you're taking a shit on the sidewalk. It's not security, because if someone's going to stab you, they're not going to bother looking around for a camera first. It's absolutely nothing more than an observation that was made public. I guarantee there are plenty more cameras elsewhere that don't have their own way too publicized website, and most of the people that are getting caught on them would rather know about the cameras in the first place, than just wait and see them fucking around on the internet later when it's too late.
The issue isn't the camera... everyone knows what they do on the street is seen by someone. But don't do it and then take a screenshot of your letter to the SFPD and post it on your FLICKR ACCOUNT. That is just plain STUPID.
He took down all the stuff on his Flickr account relating to his webcam and he was making shirt designs which made light of a certain individual named "Leroy" who from his recorded moments is on drugs and needs help... you know the crazy guy on the street yelling to himself. That's not funny. So I don't buy any of this crap that he was doing his neighborhood a justice... because if he truly was... he would help the guy. NOT TRY TO MAKE MONEY OFF HIM with stupid "cute" t-shirts making light of his situation. You go out and help the guy.
How you can turn around and say you were trying to do a good deed by reporting some random guy spraying the pavement and then laugh at your neighborhood "crackhead" like it's a joke is beyond me. Too bad he took down all those photos and t shirt designs. try to make himself the good guy but what he did is just as bad as everyone else.
If you think you live in a "dangerous" neighborhood then why the hell are you posting a screenshot of your letter to the SFPD with a link to someone's account who has street art/graffiti and urban photography in his photostream and say "I THINK THIS IS THE GUY WHO DID IT." It's not yet a crime to take a picture of what you see on the street. Much like it's not a crime to film out your window. And you know people who do stuff on the streets, they are cool with the people who LIVE on the streets. So word spreads fast, I'm sure EVERYONE who lives on the street around his place knows they were filmed at some point.
So I wouldn't go around assuming that just because you write something in a blog, you did it. They probably went out and told everyone out there, hey watch out see that window... that guy is and has been watching you. I can't believe how some people dont think about the consequences of their actions. And yes, people doing stuff on the street know the consequences. It's the self-righteous observers who do not.
Graffiti = Mexican Email
12oz Profits = future prison bitches
Boooooooyyyyyyyy!
The Flickr claims are interesting, yet so far haven't proved verifiable. It seems curious that something generating so much outrage and seen by so many has failed to generate a single screenshot.
"The application of correct logic is the LEAST effective way to show anyone their mistakes." Well said, and as I came to learn, sadly true.
So I'm the guy from 12 oz that figured it's better to try that approach, but I won't be as nice here as I was to Adam, though.
You seem to want to paint 12 oz with an awfully broad brush. Would it be fair to call you a bunch of yuppie sheep that are gentrifying my city with your pay to play attitude? Probably not, but well, you know....it's the internet and I can say whatever I want without any fear of repercussion. Doesn't matter if it true or not, so I can just throw it at the wall and see if it sticks, right?
Great, then let me go on.
Most of you have probably never missed a meal, had to sleep on the street, dealt with addiction or had to turn tricks to get a fix, or even spent a night in jail and I bet that applies to most of the people that were cracking jokes in the Adamsblock chat. Oh wait...I did it again, I made another a priori statement.
Most of you are probably as connected as Adam in the sense that you are obsessive social networkers and document every last detail of your lives on the internet. You probably take a lot of pics of yourself and post those on the web too. You believe that it's cool and hip to do this and that people actually give a shit.
I personally think it's creepy and narcissistic, but if it makes you happy good for you. That's your right and indulge it as much as you see fit. However, I could care less about the minutiae of your life.
You don't realize some of us don't want more cameras- not because we're criminals but because we have a right to walk down the street without feeling like we're under a microscope. I know, public space, yadda yadda, but if I saw you taking pictures of me without my permission you better believe we'd have words. In my opinion you DON'T have a right to do that.
In addition to your archetypical hiphop graffiti thugs, we also have teachers, professionals, medical and law students, hippies, punks, anarchists, pacifists, gay people, and people of all ages (14 to 62 at last count), shapes, colors and sizes. Not all of us write graffiti, some of us just like it. Some of us have just found a community they can be part of and don't have an opinion about graffiti either way.
Believe it or not, I do have a conscience and I think some of the things that were said to Adam were beyond the pale. I apologized to him because I truly felt bad. I didn't agree with him but I chose to do so respectfully.
So don't judge a book by it's cover. Or a website by the actions of a few dumbasses.
(I think we can all agree that both sides of this argument lack concision. I digress.)
Shai: What if Adam's Block were, say, run by an elderly black woman concerned about her hood? Would you still over fetishize this situation? Leave her be? Also, are there cases when live cams are ok?
Curious.
I'd still be opposed to it. I would try to talk to her just as I did with Adam and let her know what my concerns were and that I don't think more cameras+more cops=safer streets. Talk to anyone from the UK about this. They have the highest concentration of CCTV cameras in the world and they still have crime...in fact they have more gun crime now than ever. As far as where cameras are acceptable, I guess security cameras in businesses and government offices are sort of a fact of life at this point even though I'm not crazy about them either.
I plan to work against the camera program because the very idea of state sanctioned private surveillance is frightening for numerous reasons, but I'm going to do it by the book.
Something you all should consider is shopping for a laptop without a built in camera and mic, or a new cell phone without a camera and GPS. It's getting harder and harder to do. Also, think about how reality TV shows and social networking sites have made the idea of having you life documented for mass consumption acceptable.
Maybe I'm reaching, but I see a connection there and it scares the hell out of me. I don't want to live in "The Truman Show" or "1984" and I can't understand why anyone else would willingly accept it as a fact of life.
But Shai .. a street is a PUBLIC place. By definition, it can be seen by the PUBLIC. So you can reasonably expect that pictures will be taken of it, whether by a webcam or some other means. You don't have a right not to be seen there.
Maybe that's the problem...we've forgotten that most people might be uncomfortable being photographed or otherwise recorded without their permission.
It's not a question of whether I'm seen there, it's a question of recording it and the reason it's being recorded. I'm not an absolutist about it, though- I realize that certain allowances have to be made. For example, if I'm walking by when someone is videotaping a family outing then that's understandable. However, if someone is recording my block without my knowledge as a fishing expedition of sorts to catch people breaking the law, then I will take issue with it.
I love how shai makes all sorts of sweeping generalizations about the sfist crowd and then says "don't judge a book by it's cover". Ha!
I'd also love to see a rumble between the "don't take my picture!!" crowd and the "I can take whoever's picture I want!!" crowd. The self-righteousness would be off the charts!!
Shai:
>>
Maybe that's the problem...we've forgotten that most people might be uncomfortable being photographed or otherwise recorded without their permission.
>>
1) I don't have a Webcam pointed at the street. But I do occasionally walk around with a camera and snap photos.
Why does your desire not to be recorded trump my desire to record anything in my vision (in a public space)? If I call it "art," does that make it better? No? Why not?
2) The quote you used in your letter about exchanging liberty for freedom was intended to illustrate the dangers of handing too much power to the government. Private citizens (non-violently) taking matters into their own hands is pretty much the definition of liberty.
3) Being homeless and/or addicted to drugs is terrible, difficult, unpleasant, and degrading...and no excuse for illegal or threatening behavior. You want money for more beds, clean housing and treatment programs? Tax me, and I'll pay. Think that soft drugs should be decriminalized and that prison is the wrong way to deal with non-violent offenders? I'll donate to the cause and vote for the legislation.
Want to shoot up in my doorway, shit on the sidewalk, spray paint the wall, or threaten someone for violating your precious sense of privacy? I'll put the cops on speed dial and happily share your picture with the world.
#2 should have been "exchanging liberty for safety."
MisterPlow-
"I love how shai makes all sorts of sweeping generalizations about the sfist crowd and then says "don't judge a book by it's cover". Ha!"
To quote Frank Zappa, if I could have "put the eyebrows on it" you would have caught my drift, since irony and sarcasm are not very easy to convey on the web.
Bottom line- This is a complicated issue, and as I've said elsewhere repeatedly I'm not pro-crime, I'm anti-camera...but mainly because once the genie is out of the bottle it's damn near impossible to get him back in. For example, I just found out last night that most cell providers won't activate a phone unless it has built in GPS, ostensibly because it makes it easier for 911 calls to be trianglated. But it doesn't take a conspiracy theorist to see that a phone that says "HERE I AM" has a lot of other potential applications.
who's frank zappa?
This is not at all a complicated issue.
How do you figure that it's not? I'm against this for lots of reasons.
I find it hard to believe that no one here can see the DISADVANTAGES of having an easily accessible network of webcams open to the public.
Have any of you ever played hooky from work? Ever go to a VD clinic? Say the cam that has a bird's eye view of you local pot club catches you coming out and someone with a vendetta against the club captures the image and reposts it on the web saying "THIS GUY SURE DOESN'T LOOK SICK!"
Maybe I have an overactive imagination but I'd rather see this starkly than through rose colored glasses.
You may or may not have an overactive imagination, I don't know, but you definitely have a sweet-ass webcam if people have to worry about that stuff from it.
"You may or may not have an overactive imagination, I don't know, but you definitely have a sweet-ass webcam if people have to worry about that stuff from it."
I'm saying!
But seriously...digital cameras have come a long, long way and they're getting better and cheaper. If someone were willing to invest in a really nice cam and a T1 line they could stream some very sharp, hi-res video feeds.
And next year that same camera will cost half as much...and the new model will be twice as good.
Just because you're against it for lots of reasons doesn't make the issue complicated. The legal and ethical ramifications of public activity observed and documented in a public space have been settled for quite some time. The reasons you don't like it may be complicated for you, personally, but the issue itself is not.
As far as my own feelings go, maybe it's the perception that I'm free to go about my business (which is overwhelmingly legal, I might add) without having to wonder whether someone in England might be laughing at me because I have a big beard or because I could stand to lose a few pounds.
People can be petty and when the circus comes to town (or the streaming cam site goes online) people flock to it to see the freaks. Adam may have meant well but human nature took over and a lot of the people that were in the chat seemed like vultures.
So that's another reason I'm against it. One way that this site can be taken is "Since it's the public space, we have a right to indulge our voyeuristic tendencies with regards to crime and the human condition on skid row."
Before you judge anyone, think about this- your morality was called into question by a bunch of graffiti writing internet tough guys who weren't afraid to say, "Shame on you." The door swings both ways.
Yes, there are mean people on the Internet, saying mean things. It sucks. However, it is not, and should not be, a persuasive argument against such cameras.
Also, I can't let this pass:
your morality was called into question by a bunch of graffiti writing internet tough guys who weren't afraid to say, "Shame on you."
Actually, what you did was frighten a kid from suburbia and little experience with city life. That is, I believe, known as "getting extremely lucky." I wouldn't count on it happening twice.
You may now go about posting further rebuttals without concern for reply, though at this point I have to wonder who you're trying to convince of the rightness of your position.