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Happy 4th of July!
SFist Drinks: The Rio Grande Cocktail at 15 Romolo
CBS 5's Joe Vazquez reports that the big, pink "Fuck Mormons" banner has been removed. While rumors of photoshopping swirled, CBS 5 managed to figure out that, yes, the sign was, in fact, real.
The sign went up at 606 Sanchez Street, made with strips of pink sheets of paper. The building's owner, Michael Thomas, admits to putting up the banner, but won't say why, exactly, he took it down.
CBS 5 interviewed Thomas, discussing such points as the Central Valley; disenfranchising Mormon culprits; SFist; and you, dear commenters.
CBS 5: "You've been following the discussion on SFist. While some comments support you, others are saying, 'this isn't going to help.'"MT: "There are all kinds of assimilationists that are of the opinion that if we're only nicer, then maybe the Mormons and hate groups will come around. That ain't the way it works. Somebody needs to call these guys for what they are doing.
I'm angry at their meddling in our affairs. It's particularly ironic about the Mormons doing this, given their past. Polygamy and all that good stuff. Then, they sit there and lay down the gauntlet. Now that they're big and they feel entitled to persecute a group that's weaker."
While one might argue that gay marriage is also a form a assimilation, whatever that is, that's splitting hairs at this point. We thank Thomas for giving us much to discuss, not to mention figure out, in this most difficult time.
Update: Said banner was taken down because it was "made of paper and falling apart after the storm." SFist regrets the sensationalistic error.
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So then in this guy's version of reality the opposite of being an assimilationist is to be a vindictive hate monger. How provincial.
boo!!!!!!!!!
i started a cause on facebook to revoke all the churches tax exempt status in this country.
What a pleasant guy. I bet his neighbors think he's just super.
politics and civil rights aside for a second, i am in love with your name, giant fur diaper.
FUCK MICHAELS
teehee
He sounds like a Sissy.
Glad you came around, Michael Thomas!
But just to be clear, maybe I missed a comment, but I don't think anyone was suggesting we just need to be nicer and wait for everyone to like us. Or at least I certainly wasn't. We should fight like hell - just in a focused, productive manner. If you want something to do right now, how about starting with a complaint to the IRS?
http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/2008/10/29/how-to-file-an-irs-501c3-complaint/
Too bad it's down, I liked it.
I love it when SFist get a MSM nod.
Did he put up an asterisk first?
yatdave, you have to read through the pathology.
He is projecting his internal dialog that to be mature, reasonable and measured, in the face of what he considers to be disdainfully unapproachable, is equal to suppliance. Over the course of his life he's apparently developed a coping defense of (passive)-aggressive vengeance while excusing it with the equivalent of "they started it, and anyone that doesn't agree with me is a big doo doo head. So neener neener, mmmmlah!"
Or, inversely, you can just read what the man said.
Could he not afford a professional sighn maker?
If you read the article, I already said why we took it down: it's was made of paper and falling apart after the storm and we were going out of town. Of course that doesn't suit your sensationalist idiocy.
@Brock: do you have a personal stake in this? Or are you like one of my str8 busybody neighbors who found it necessary to lecture me on how my rights might be secured if only we kissed more Mormon ass?
@travin: you'd make a better arm chair psychologist if you learned how to write. Try using words that you actually understand.
sensationalist idiocy? like, say, a black fly in your chardonnay?
Seriously though, fuck the mormons. Where is "Anonymous" when you need 'em?
Thomas explained why the sign came down - it was made of paper, it got rained on, it was coming apart, they were leaving town.
You know, I appreciate that people want to find a way to distinguish between the LDS hierarchy and church members in their role in passing Prop 8. And it's true that there were a very few LDS members who came out against Prop 8.
But you really should read this, a reader's letter to Andrew Sullivan:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/11/why-the-lds-att.html
The Mormon Prophet commanded that every California member give time and money to pass Prop 8. Each member was then contacted by a church authority to make sure the orders from Salt Lake City were obeyed. Mormons were organized into groups to canvas neighborhoods, knock on doors, distribute yards signs, and otherwise organize against gay marriage rights.
Sounds like standard civic participation, right? But remember, Mormons are not allowed to dissent.
Those who openly speak disagreement with the church's orthodoxy are routinely excommunicated (you can easily Google public examples, most are secret). There are reports on public websites that Mormon Bishops even questioned individual’s actions supporting Prop 8 in “Temple Interviews,” a form of confessional where members validate that they are living up to the highest church standards.
Questioning support for Prop 8 in such a setting is an implicit threat to the individual’s church membership and continuation as a member of Mormon society. Deliberately complicating matters for outside observers, church members were ordered to disguise their actions. Official church orders told them to disguise their Mormon identity, not go in pairs, and not to wear white shirts and ties.
As the campaign escalated, the church broadened its call to members, drawing in activists and money from around the country. So although Mormons are less than 2% of the California population's, several gay websites claim that over 70% of the private money donated in support of Prop 8 was Mormon. Yes, some Mormon individuals stood up against their church. Of the 13+ million Mormons, about 300 signed an online petition. A Mormon ex-football player’s wife put out a supportive statement. He didn’t join it.
****
So, how does one differentiate between the LDS membership and LDS leadership? Because the fact is that the Mormons bought and paid for Prop 8, and they need to be called on it. They're a group that once was oppressed, and now they're using their power to oppress another group. This isn't a trivial matter. And the anger of the people who put the sign up is entirely justified.
casasanchez, how smart is it to be hateful and insulting in the same instance that you tell the entire internet that you're going out of town when your real name and address are at the top of this page?
I go with, 'not very.'
@ casasanchez
you OBVIOUSLY don't know brock. not even a little.
Looks like I called that one correctly.
Mr. Michael Thomas' neighbors love him just as much as this group does.
Gee. I'm detecting a pattern.
So, all the snarking aside: we know the LDS organized the Prop 8 effort. The question is: how does one distinguish between members of the LDS church and its hierarchy, or is it necessary to do so at all? Further, does making nice work in this kind of struggle?
Ain't that a shame?
@travin: um, the sign was up for week with no issues. the CBS campout happened _after_ we left.
They found it and published the address. And what was I supposed to do with my name? Cower behind "c hicken shit faggot who doesn't want to be named?" What evil would the harrumpherati around here read into _that_?
@poor offended Kainok: I asked Brock a question precisely because I do not know. That's what you do when you don't know somebody. He has yet to reply. So I still OBVIOUSLY don't know Brock even a little. By his choice. Specifically, is Brock a) gay b) married.
@full diaper: you sure seem to an amazing predictive power there. Unfortunately wrong, but amazing nonetheless. Maybe you can send your magic diapers back Provo for a full refund. Assuming they ignore the skids.
To the rest: has anybody canceled a reserve at the Marriot? Killed a trip to Little Cottonwood Canyon? Or how about compiling a list of all of these hate fucks and start demonstrating on every street corner to raise awareness that they are the perps here.
Blaming the mormons is just dumb. Election results showed it was blacks and asians that were decisive to pass 8. Of course, hating on them would be so un-PC.
wow, all this infighting among prop 8 opponents sure seems to be getting a lot done.
Day three of Fuckmormonsgate.
meg whitman is a mormon. seriously. the entire prop 8/LDS political infrastructure is going to get her elected governor.
Shouldn't the self-righteous, hollier-than-thou, non-racists people on this site get back to bashing Asians with pink grocery bags?
Michael Thomas for president! I love you! Thank you for telling it like it is. Everyone else can suck it!
As far as I'm concerned, you don't separate the hierarchy from its followers. If you choose to be a member of this church, knowing what they are engaging in, then you are just as guilty as they are, because you are supporting them. Period.
If they're so feeble they stand up and say NO, and leave the church because they just can't live without belonging to a hate group, then f**k them.
Sorry, that shoudl have said, if they're so feeble they CAN'T stand up and say no.
I wish you could edit comments.
mormons = nice big easy target.
rachel maddow says that prop 8 wasn't explained clearly enough to people of color. that's why they voted 70% in favor.
Still, harrumpherati is an awesome term.
It sounds like Rachel Maddow is saying people of color are idiots. I'm sure they'll love that. The text said, if I recall correctly, "Shall the constitution be changed to eliminate the right of same sex couples to marry..."
That sounds pretty clear to me. If I was a "person of color" I'd be pretty insulted by Maddow's claim.
@ fizzandpop
Fuckmormonsgate has such mellifluous and pleasing sound.
It rolls off the tongue like the setting of a Jane Austen novel. I plan to use it whenever appropriate.
Precisely. Prop 8 read "ELIMINATE THE RIGHTS."
It is a hurtful & Un-American thing to strike a YES vote for anything couched in those terms.
Prop 8 wasn't explained poorly, It was presented with Lies and False Arguments. They used a young child (despicable in itself) to scare people into thinking kids would be taught homosexual ideas in school. In California parents have to sign permission slips before their precious ones participate in anything "controversial"
While some minority groups did vote disproportionately to ELIMINATE rights, saying that any one group is responsible is not a correct interpretation of math, or reality.
Having said that. I made sure to keep my NO on 8 stickers visible lest i be given the evil gay eye on the train for a few days post-election.
Maddow isn't suggesting that people of colour are idiots. She did a show where she spoke to the fact that the African-American community voted heavily in favour of Prop 8, and her guest talked about the fact that the No on 8 campaign didn't do any meaningful outreach into communities of colour. The issue is that the African American community was heavily lobbied by Prop 8 proponents - with all the lies and propaganda we know they used - but the No on 8 team pretty much ignored communities of colour in the campaign. It was a critical error by the No on 8 campaign.
Please stop perpetuation the myth that it was blacks, latinos and asians that were the problem here. Asians from what I saw were *against* prop 8. And it is widely known that the CNN exit poll that gave rise to the "70%" number for blacks was flawed, flawed, flawed. I believe that Nate Silver dissected this on http://fivethirtyeight.com, but it may have been elsewhere. If you don't believe me, *please* take some time to do your own research.
What isn't in dispute is the HUGE pile of money that Mormons collected and used to spread outright lies about us. Like making this a referendum on kindergarten teaching. People who voted to disenfranchise us are still culpable for their actions, but let's keep some perspective of who the hysteria Meisters are, and how big their bag of cash was to whip it up. The goal here is to make them think twice or three times the next time.
This sign should have been posted before the election. Second here is a interesting take on minority politics on daily kos. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/7/34645/1235/704/656272
I disagree with the blame associated within this piece but can agree it is a strong case that singling out a racial group, a religious group of any kind is not productive its the issue at hand that we need to concentrate on. The political issue of marriage and what it means in terms of laws, fundamental rights and basic fairness which the no on Prop. 8 movement didn’t do a good job of harnessing or telling a story.
The measure lost by almost 450,000 ballots. Did you know that African Americans are a minority in the state? One which in its entirety would be less than the amount this Prop. Lost by? Did you know Mormons are a minority in this state?
The fact is that 82 percent of Republicans also voted yes on marriage while 34 percent of Democrats voted yes on the proposition. To simply say it’s the “African Americans and Latinos that caused this is to simplistic to explain the loss of Prop. 8. It’s the people who voted who we should be blaming. The one group who voted in far more numbers and has far more members than African Americans and Mormons are Republicans. Blame them, Blame their ideals, Blame their unified beliefs and to blame a race or simply a religion in political matters is a way muttering up the discussion! http://media.sacbee.com/smedia/2008/11/05/18/prop8.source.prod_affiliate.4.pdf
http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php?title=California_Proposition_8_(2008)
This sign should have been posted before the election. Second here is a interesting take on minority politics on daily kos. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/7/34645/1235/704/656272
I disagree with the blame associated within this piece but can agree it is a strong case that singling out a racial group, a religious group of any kind is not productive its the issue at hand that we need to concentrate on. The political issue of marriage and what it means in terms of laws, fundamental rights and basic fairness which the no on Prop. 8 movement didn’t do a good job of harnessing or telling a story.
The measure lost by almost 450,000 ballots. Did you know that African Americans are a minority in the state? One which in its entirety would be less than the amount this Prop. Lost by? Did you know Mormons are a minority in this state?
The fact is that 82 percent of Republicans also voted yes on marriage while 34 percent of Democrats voted yes on the proposition. To simply say it’s the “African Americans and Latinos that caused this is to simplistic to explain the loss of Prop. 8. It’s the people who voted who we should be blaming. The one group who voted in far more numbers and has far more members than African Americans and Mormons are Republicans. Blame them, Blame their ideals, Blame their unified beliefs and to blame a race or simply a religion in political matters is a way muttering up the discussion! http://media.sacbee.com/smedia/2008/11/05/18/prop8.source.prod_affiliate.4.pdf
http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php?title=California_Proposition_8_(2008)
Genric: I look back fondly on my time at Fuckmormonsgate. The summers, the wine, the enchanting Milicent Foxborough. Sadly the darkness of war has descended and transported me to this hell of mud, blood and human wreckage.
@casasanchez: I'm not trying to perpetuate the myth that communities of colour are responsible for Prop 8 passing. Clearly, the campaign was organized and funded by the Mormons - and the Mormons were smart enough to do things like circulate brochures in Black communities that misled people into thinking Obama supported 8, which he clearly did not.
But I still think that failing to do any outreach to communities of colour was a critical tactical error and it's something that needs to be done in any further marriage-related activism. And I think there are ways to talk about this issue that don't reduce to the myth-creating or blaming communities of colour for Prop 8's success.
Meanwhile, though, I agree that a targeted, coordinated boycott of LDS holdings has to happen. Let's make those fuckers pay.
@casasanchez.
Learn a) how to distinguish sarcasm (see: snark) from offense, and b) who your audience is. That said, I liked you sign. Whether it was productive... not my place.
I'm all for fucking Mormons and the sentiment... but fight fire with fire. Organize, raise more money than they did, and spread outward lies about them.
What gets me, is that the those opposed to 8 CLEARLY could have rallied more support and financing BEFORE the election, and if it was the Mormon's bank account that got this thing to pass, I have no idea why these protests didn't happen pre-election. Was everyone caught up in electing Obama and consequently neglecting a little proposition about basic civil rights? Gays have money and power and regrettably failed to wield either when it was so important.
20/20 hindsight and all...
Well, it's easy to second guess what should or shouldn't have been done of course. But the entire point of my sign is that we need to do something NOW which most likely isn't the same set of things we should have been contemplating BEFORE. Namely, boycotting Mormon businesses. Like the (ex?) head of WordPerfect who gave a million bucks (!), and all the rest of them. Target their ski resorts just like Colorado was targeted after they passed Amendment 2. Target any and all Mormon owned businesses. Make this a winter they'll not soon forget.
Part of the frustration here is that our "leaders" have done nothing except place all of their hopes on the Courts. Regardless of whether that pans out, we should be taking action against these guys *regardless*. But where's the leadership? The march/rally the other day was completely useless: what *action* against the perps was suggested? Nothing. Where is the organization around a boycott? Nowhere. Did anybody see Beaver? Ammiano? Leno? What's her runs-into-cars, I mean Migdon? Where are these these people?
If nothing else, we need a lot more visibility into who the haters are, and how to avoid giving them our money. Maybe picketing them so that the word gets out that.
I'll ask again: who has a trip planned to Utah to ski this year? Why aren't you canceling and going to, oh say, Taos or Telluride instead? If that happens -- and is documented -- it would be pretty powerful message to the Mormons.
Brock: please cancel the SFist-sponsored luxury ski trip you were planning for all us loyal readers. Mr. Thomas has made his point, and we agree with it.
Eve: Monaco it is, then. Sigh.
Good, I will bring my ruby encrusted "No on 8" broach and wear it on the Concorde so all the right people know where we stand on the issue.
Oh, shit, I forgot that the Concorde isn't flying anymore. Brock, can we blame the Mormons for that, too?
Brock has described this discussion as Childish Bile today in another article. The 4 previous comments are just that. You joke about boycotts and then write about them in later articles.
I'm glad Brock is so honest about his own Childish words! It's funny that Brock goes on to make many of the same points people were making here about fighting the LDS Church. Your Welcome for discussion points.
GayIsTheNewBlack, would you please rephrase this in the form of a comment that makes some semblance of sense?
thanks!
If I had to guess, I'd say that he's calling you a pompous asshole.
Given your new article, "useless asshole" is a lot closer.
You still have never said what stake you have in this. None is my bet.
if you have read this site, casasanchez -- or bothered to step outside your pseudo-wounded-by-organized-religion bullshit bubble, for that matter -- you would know i'm a proud cocksucker and think the passing of prop. 8 is a disgusting and scary moment in california history.
what concerns me most is that you, mike thomas, are getting off on prop. 8's passing, getting off on the anger you're feeling masquerading as a call to action, getting off on your failed moment of ACT-UP activism. disgusting.
I don't think a boycott will really have much of an impact on them financially, and they've already showed a large degree of financial commitment to this cause.
If you want to hit them where it really hurts, let's make Salt Lake City Pride the biggest, baddest, funnest, faggiest Pride ever. Nothing will hurt them more than having to see a million fags having an awesome time in their home territory; a gay Mecca, even.
Brock, have I taught you nothing? Don't taunt the mentally ill, especially when they're rich (still snickering at this whole "move your ski trip" nonsense, like, what economy is he observing?) and entitled.
I googled around and couldn't find anything. Sorry, I'm not one of your fans. And to sneeringly say that I've been "pseudo-wounded" shows who's living in the bubble. We've been *really* wounded. Not pseudo. Really. And your idiotic crap about "maybe we should just be friendlier to them" isn't going to do JACK SHIT. Not even when you do it real passive agressive-like.
And you can tell Eva Braun that I'm ever so sorry that she has no ski trips to cancel. Really, I am.
I'll think of her every day of the 40 days I get in this year.
I'm sorry I tried to convince you not to ban this bigoted nutbag, Brock. You were right.
So just what does transpire on your little back-channel communiques??? Your little Cabal considers Censoring Opinion. Why am I not surprised?
Hmmmm."SFist is a website about San Francisco." Apparently, not all of SF.
Any Banning of Users can only be seen as Invalidating the Credibility of Anything Posted by the Editors on this Site. Go for it. There are many ways to come back with many email addresses. You will never be able to block me or any of my hundreds of friends who will flood you with contrary opinions.
relax. no one has banned anyone, you mental giant.
Reporting in to whatever's happening here; it sure looks exciting!
Yet Ms. Braun has given her all trying to convince you not to pull the trigger. It's a good thing that her fainting couch was there to receiver her limp, spent, lifeless body, freed at last of this mortal coil, content in the knowledge her fight was the good fight. I look forward to the service where I can pay my regards.
goodness gracious, casasanchez and GITNB, did you just discover the internets? this is all very amusing.
thanks.
Yeah, I'm new to the internet toobs. I think it was 82 when I saw my first one, and 85 when I wrote my first one. You and your sycophants do on the other hand remind me of the insufferable Cyborganic Trendy Hets and the soc.bi Nice Peoples back in the mid 90's. Do you know Muffy Barkocy by any chance?
Oh yay. Internet drama's ambulance chaser, Jameth, has arrived. Thread over.
@missiondweller
no, you're right. it wouldn't be correct at all.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/stewar239/miscellaneous/prop8figurethreelatimes.jpg
It if was 70% of Blacks and Latinos, then who do you think lives in all of those counties where the majority passed prop 8?
Everyone is at fault, lets face it. NO on Prop 8 was a shitty campaign. The fallout is making everyone look worse than a bunch of bitchy Republicans on a losing year. Quit the whining.
brock. comment #53 actually made me clap and go "HA!" out loud. thank you for that. carry on.