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SFist reader Greg Ellis writes to us for help.
Editor - Can you help? Any suggestions on other forums to get advice?Looking at a place near Cole and Hayes. Anyone live in the area bounded by Masonic, Stanyan, Fell and Fulton? How safe is this area?
1) Would you advise a small-ish woman that it's fine to walk to Lucky Supermarket at 9pm? What about up to Cole and Carl? What about to Fly?
2) Would you park you car on the street without (much) fear on getting the windows smashed?
3) Have you ever had a homeless (or otherwise un-savory) person sleep on your steps? Piss on your steps? Verbally harass you near your home? [B2B day excluded]
4) How much ambulance traffic/noise does St. Mary's hospital get?
5) Any other thoughts about the neighborhood?
Thanks!
Our advice is that any place not inside One Rincon Hill or Presidio Terrance is pretty much a war zone, so we're not the best person to ask. But what say you, real-estate savvy readers? Can you help Greg and his small-ish lady friend find a safe place to call home?
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NOPA is safe! It's the Western Addition that's dangerous.
Go to Everyblock dot com and put in your potential address. Aside from the urination query, you should get what you need.
1) Yes.
2) Don't park your car on Fell. There are constantly people walking up and down the Panhandle casing vehicles and windows get smashed regularly. But then, why own a car? Cole and hayes is within reach of approximately a bajillion bus lines.
3) Constantly. Call 311. (I live on the Oak side where I think this is more likely. Cole between Haight and the Panhandle is a street kid superhighway.)
4) Fell is loud. Loud loud loud. And a preferred route for emergency service vehicles to blare their sirens on the way to/from St Mary's and the Kezar Police station.
My entire family was murdered at that very intersection
nah, I'm just kidding. They all survived the attack.
I lived off of fulton in 2006 (the pre "NOPA" days) and it was a mixed bag. I always felt generally safe, though there were some houses and streets that you would know to stay away from after a certain hour. Parking was ok. My car never got fucked with. My old roommate got a bj from a toothless prostitute that used to hang around sometimes.
We did have a crazy homeless lady, who was actually the ex wife of somebody who lived in the apartment next to us...something like that. Either way, she would often be on our steps and would ask us for cigarettes and booze, talk to us about how her mom won't let her see her kids, and would try to sell us her art. Which was actually quite good.
I live with my girlfriend now, and we looked at a great apartment on Fulton, just a few blocks down from Luckys. She was ok with the location, until she spent a weekday walking around the hood during the day, when only the crazy and homeless are wandering around, and then one night we drove by and there was in fact a homeless dude passed out on what would be our steps. So that was the end of that place.
Other than the homeless artist lady who would sometimes scream in the middle of the night at our next door neighbors, I remember it being pretty tranquil. Besides the fire station and baptist church across the street, that is.
I'm surprised people are seriously responding to this. In my 7 years in SF, I am continuously amazed at the large amount of folks who move here with some sort of aversion to city living. If you really have a problem with ambulances, homeless (aka "unsavory") people and potential damage to your car, there are thousands and thousands of boring safe little enclaves all over the country to call home.
Amen.
When people ask about noise is what gets to me (not that this person's request is dumb). I take noise with city life. I don't complain unless the person upstairs is jackhammering in the middle of the night and that only happens, what...two or three times a year?
I clicked through from RSS to make exactly this comment, but my version would have been dumber and less literate. Hear, hear.
I love living in the city and have for 15+ years, in all different neighborhoods. I'm raising my kids here and send them to public schools (omg, a breeder). I love all the craziness and intimacy that the city offers. I don't love people pissing on my steps, letting their pets piss on my steps or otherwise fouling where I have to walk everyday. These things may be typical, but they are not and don't have to be acceptable in the city or otherwise.
That said, to the original poster, I would say that some houses are more likely to be pissed on and used for sleeping than others, regardless of the neighborhood. It depends on the layout of the front. If you like the area, look for a place that has an enclosed front area and/or no nooks and crannies for doing "business". And, yes, street by street can make a big difference. I highly recommend spending time in any neighborhood, at different hours of the day, to get a feel for it yourself before making the decision either way.
Exactly--like constant sirens and vagrants camping/pissing on your stoop are somehow inherent in urban life and should be expected if not welcomed. Cracks about "boring enclaves" aside, these things don't make city life "exciting."
It isn't that they should be welcomed, but expected to some extent. The concept of these things being "constant" is a paranoid suburban idea of urban "evil" lurking around every corner. It isn't always exciting, but it is part of living around a lot of different types of people in a dense urban environment. If someone is overly sensitive to these things, living in a City may not be the best option.
it is part of living around a lot of different types of people in a dense urban environment. If someone is overly sensitive to these things, living in a City may not be the best option.
I disagree. There are plenty of places here and cities much larger than here where a bum shitting on your steps isn't merely "a part of living around a lot of" people. Why on Earth would anyone not be sensitive to it?
seriously, why would you move to The City if you are searching for Pleasantville type living? move to Livermore, or even The Sea Cliff, or St. Francis Wood. or Connecticut. or Canada.
and wherever you move dont ever, ever, ever, move to Potrero Hill. not because its unsafe or unsavory, but because you sound like your lofty goals of city living will over time annoy all of your neighbors, neighbors dogs/kids, 311, 911 dispatch, etc.
It's one thing to engage in delicious neighborhood snobbery (like Plug1's comment), but it's quite another to question whether someone should even consider living in an area with a more residential flavor.
The Outer Sunset and the Tenderloin are "the city". I've lived in them both. Is it so craaaazy to assume there's a gradient, and that NOPA, (equidistant from the two), resembles one more than the other? "Urban living" comes in a lot of shapes and sizes.
Q: So what's the harm in asking if it's your size?
A: They might be the ones who tells me to turn down the music.
Generic is right about this. I also think it's hypocritical that most of the "move to the suburbs!" crowd are themselves people who moved to the city *from the suburbs* and decided what "city living" should include.
it should be "The City" and never "the city".
1) Would you advise a small-ish woman that it's fine to walk to Lucky Supermarket at 9pm? What about up to Cole and Carl? What about to Fly?
No it's a bad nieghborhood don't move here. You might want to try the suburbs (marina).
2) Would you park you car on the street without (much) fear on getting the windows smashed?
No. I don't have a car specifically for this reason. It's gonna be at least $200 for a parking spot, or if you park on the street it'll be $250 deductible every week for new windows and/or carson (see sf carsonist).
3) Have you ever had a homeless (or otherwise un-savory) person sleep on your steps? Piss on your steps? Verbally harass you near your home? [B2B day excluded]
Yes they sleep there. Yes, they poo and pee there as well. There are lots of homeless.
4) How much ambulance traffic/noise does St. Mary's hospital get?
Lots and the sirens are loud and annoying. Don't move here.
5) Any other thoughts about the neighborhood?
Might I advise you to move to burlingame?
I lived on Fell between Cole and Shrader for a year and a half. As a 5'0 tall woman, I never felt unsafe walking alone in the area, even at night.
I was never once harrassed by any of the many bums you'll come to call neighbors. You'll soon know the two types - the older homeless people you really feel for who are clearly unstable and hopefully find a mattress they set up in the same spot you walk by every morning, and 2, what we call the "fauxmless", or "faux homeless," the runaway kids who primarily come from Marin and hang out in the Panhandle making obnoxiously loud drum circles and riling up their dogs at 4 am. Both are totally harmless, in my experience.
Fell itself is super noisy - I wouldn't live directly on it again, between the cars and fauxmless. But you're ok even on a cross street. No bad ambulance noise from St. Mary's either.
Honestly the only thing that bothered me about living there was leaving my house and getting ogled by a giant double decker tour bus before I've even had my coffee...
Oh, and one addition - we parked a car on Fell several nights a week for our entire tenure and never had a smashed window. I actually think because there's so much traffic these cars get less bothered - my friend's across the park at Waller got smashed 4x.
I'm 5'3" and have lived in my current place for over 3 years and have never felt threatened in this neighborhood. A good strategy if you are walking late at night is to take busy roads like Fell, Masonic, Fulton etc rather than quiet streets, works for me.
You'll be mortally offended upon reaching Lucky's. That store sucks.
and how.
But Falletti's is quite nice. Lucky's has gone way downhill since it was sold by Albertsons.
Lived in the neighborhood for a couple of years on cole and hayes. Early morning at the bus stop some creepy dude flashed the "you know what", also happened to another friend too, same guy. Just be careful
ugh -- I can't believe that stupid NoPa label stuck. Blech. wonder how ol' "Polk Village" is doing.
I lived at Hayes and Divis for 14 years 1994-2008, and it was just fine. Keep your eyes open, grow some balls, and enjoy actually living in a place where you can interact with people who make you think about life. And eat at Eddie's!
Dude, there's no reason to eat at Eddie's. If you aren't capable of putting kraft singles between slices of white bread with processed meat and putting that in a frying pan, then I guess it's an option, but otherwise...there really isn't a point.
Thank you! I never got the appeal of this place.
With the exception of 1 block in any direction from Grove and Divis, the neighborhood is about as safe as it gets. If you have a late nineties car with no alarm and no club, with stuff visible in it, there's a good chance it will get broken into, anywhere in SF. If you're religious about hiding stuff in the trunk, emptying your car, and generally not making it a tempting target, chances are low you will have problems.
Any street that is 2-way without lines on the pavement and stop signs at the end will be reasonably quiet. Traffic on such streets is lower. Ideally, you'd be 1 block away from a bus line but not actually on a bus line.
Even Grove & Divis is getting pretty safe, what with increased policing and increased foot traffic of the non drug or pimpin' variety.
Relatively safe neighbirhood. The lucky was robbed by masked gunmen a year or so ago. Cars were broken into on that stretch of Ashbury this past week, otherwise it's fairly uncommon. This is a different world than the other side of masonic, where crack-tyoe houses are still around, and where slain teen Aubrey's memorial still appears every now and then.
It still has the highest concentration of service houses in SF. So, that house is for mentally ill moms and their kids (2 max) and that place is for asian americans who are dealing with addictio, etc... But there are no halfway houses around, the way they have them in the outer outer Sunset.
They're taking out bus stops for the 21 hayes soon, but the 5 Fulton is just up the block and it's perfectly cromulent given that there are other bus lines around to pick up the slack on days MUNI is having issues.
I believe the only 21 - Hayes stops being eliminated are the ones west of Stanyan.
5 is faster than 21. Hence the stop removal, to speed the 21 up.
I have lived at Cole and Hayes for 4 years.
1) Yes, although Lucky does suck. In my opinion, Faletti and Real Foods are better options, and there's a small market on Haight Street.
2) Yes; my car's on the street for long stretches and has never been vandalized.
3) As someone else said, most of them keep to themselves and are harmless. The kids hanging out in the Panhandle are annoying but not dangerous.
4) It's not that noisy, especially if your bedroom doesn't front the street. Fell Street traffic can be loud.
5) I think the neighborhood is perfectly safe, and its proximity to Divisadero St. and Cole Valley is a nice benefit. It's just too bad there isn't a better mix of retail and dining establishments on Haight St.
Welcome to the neighborhood. Hope you like fog.
Dude it is petrifying!
You're surrounded by unsavory types (you know, went to state schools), Lucky's is unfortunate, thank god for Falleti Foods, and even though NoPa is located nearby(great place for a cheap burger and hand cut fries) there is a Popeye's RIGHT across the street (I'll let you figure out what that means).
To the other commenters...why does Lucky "suck?" Isn't just a normal grocery store? I've never noticed anything bad about it.
I've lived in the city for 18 years and never had a problem. You have to use common sense when you're walking around. But if it makes you feel any better, you can get all the crime statistics you could ever want at this police database.
http://www.sfgov.org/site/police_index.asp?id=23813
I've lived in this neighborhood before and am a young shorter lady. You have nothing to worry about. I can't even think of one instance where I ever considered that neighborhood unsafe, in fact, it's kind of bourgie, no? You'd be near USF which is absolutely crawling with smallish-women. If they can do it, you can.
awesome school slogan: "USF...absolutely crawling with smallish-women"
There is no NoPa neighborhood. Therefore, safety is not an issue.
I will not rest until every block in SF has a cute name attached to it.
It's NOPA when you're describing the trendy new restaurant in your neighborhood.
It's the Western Addition when your car gets broken into in front of that restaurant.
Very good.
haha. Word.
The Panhandle just ain't Western Addition.
There's a reason why NOPA caught on and it had nothing to do with realtor ads.
Whole stretches of the city don't get renamed because of one restaurant.
This non-NoPa area is awesome...
1) Lucky closes at 10PM, so you should be fine as well as totally safe if you head there about 9PM. Walking up to Cole and Carl or over to Fly on Divis is fine, too.
2) If I had a car, I'd park it just about anywhere except on Fell, but that's mainly b/c of the traffic.
3) Nope, no, and never. I live just up the street on Grove.
4) Some noise, but it's not too bad.
5) The neighborhood is great. Enjoy life and this little 'hood up the hill.
This is just sad. Seriously.
Don't want to live in a place where there are homeless people? Don't move to Sf. Really. Just Don't.
and OMG, a Popeyes?? Across the street from NOPA? You decide what that means? Implying what...
That the Divis corridor is being horrifically gentrified beyond all recognition? Yup. Pretty much. Thank god there's another Nopa opening up in that expensive grocery store to handle the overflow.
Go live in Pacific Heights if you are offended or freaked out by the occasional person of color who isn't just opening the door for you or cleaning your house.
I think your sarcasm detector needs a tuneup.
I'm going to start calling Haight SOPA
Respect The Neighborhood
Honestly, everyone should exercise a little caution walking around late at night.
The area bordered by Cole, Haight, and Stanyan is unsavory, quiet, and dark after 11. The killer from Dirty Harry lived close by there! However, he was fictional.
Most of the crime around here is pretty opportunistic. If you use a bicycle, no one will have a chance to think twice about you as you zip by.
I like this corner of the city and have lived here for 3.5 years. There's not a lot happening in it, but a good amount happening close by. So the neighborhood is mostly mellow people who are kind of aware of each other.
I like it! But maybe because I'm a dog and I get to eat all the chicken bones people throw on the ground.
As a cat, I find this neighborhood very dangerous. Too many dogs.
Fly is trouble free. They take phone orders too, if you want a late night dinner and are in a hurry.
Dear Greg Ellis,
Here we go with this NOPA shit again. I lived in part of the area deemed by others to be NOPA, and it is not a neighborhood, but rather a ploy by property owners to sever themselves from the part of the Western Addition that is not so savory. I lived in the Panhandle. That was a neighborhood. I lived at USF. I lived near Divisadero. Those are all neighborhoods. NOPA is not contiguous, and it is not a neighborhood, less so a district. The Western Addition IS the district, but NOPA doesn't come close to even being a neighborhood.
Is it safe? good lord! What do you think it is? Bayview?! If you are worried about the amorphous NOPA as being unsafe, you need to get potty trained real fast, because San Franciscans don't wait for someone to change our diapers, we use toilets--well, most of us.
If you are concerned about crime, go to SFPD's crime map. You can view crime reports from the last 90 days. Sometimes the site works, sometimes it doesn't. The average crime of the panhandle is car vandalism for those who park along the park. Otherwise, there are a few bar fights and muggings in the Haight now and then. Other than that... not a whole lot. Past divisadero things CAN get a bit rough, but if you aren't living in the projects and having sex with your drug dealer's girlfriend, I doubt you'll be chosen out of the blue to be someone's next murder victim.
I hope that helped.
Wow, the comments here are almost as crankily earnest as those on the mary jane thread. Lighten up people!
Note to the original poster: the typical resident of the hood has much less of an attitude than elsewhere in the city (e.g. Mission), current comments notwithstanding.
Ive lived on both sides of the panhandle (oak at clayton and now hayes at clayton) and I have to say that the nopa side is VASTLY different than the haight side. Yes, there are the occasional broken car windows, but very few gutter punks come north and it's just quieter all around. I walk my dog alone at night and feel perfectly comfortable.
So recommendation: hayes at cole: yes. Page at cole: no.
True.
I lived at Fell & Masonic for 3 years, and don't know what all these psychos are raving about.
It's almost as though there's some large border separating the two areas.