SFist: Protest Over BART Shooting Turns to Riot

winstonsmith

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 20:05:39 -0800

yeah, ok. drop the pseudo-intellectual terminology - you don't know what you're talking about. to label what i wrote in three sentences as reductionism speaks to the fact that you just got out of your undergraduate philosophy/religion/linguistics class.

3dollarbilly

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 17:57:07 -0800

He wasn't cuffed and he was resisting. I'm not saying he deserved to die but at least get your facts straight.

withak

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 17:07:26 -0800

They sent everyone in my office (13th and Broadway) home at 3pm today. Apparently based on info from BART and the Oakland PD.

SFBurke

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:17:41 -0800

@ACJ: you are just an apologist for violence. On the one hand, you seem offended that "yuppies" express their view here, but you think it is appropriate for hooligans to express their views by trashing cars and businesses. Do you really think those people are "expressing their rage about Oscar Grant" or are they just enjoying a fun evening of mayhem. The death of Mr. Grant is a tragedy and serious people are working to ensure that justice is done. Unserious people, like you and the rioters, are spewing absurd rhetoric and just making the situation worse.

manys

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 14:29:40 -0800

Ah, good to know that the civil rights movement succeeded due to only one reason. Your reductionism reveals an authoritarian bias.

Joel

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 14:20:35 -0800

Get off the grassy knoll.

AugustCJohnson

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 14:13:52 -0800

do you believe everything you read in the chronicle?

AugustCJohnson

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 14:10:13 -0800

When he was killed, he was prone, on his stomach, face down, hand cuffed, one cop on top of him, another standing above. what resisting do you see when that man was shot?

grumblor

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 14:08:16 -0800

And from what I am hearing now, he wasn't even cuffed.

manys

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:45:40 -0800

Close enough, however I fear the DA will side with you and bring much lesser charges than a non-LEO would receive. If you think the life of a police officer is more valuable than a citizen's, that's a value judgment that is yours to make. It would sure betray a conflict of interest for LEOs, though.

feedthebirds

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:41:20 -0800

van halen asked "where have all the good times gone." now we know

Kasi

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:28:26 -0800

We don't know whether it was murder.

withak

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:26:05 -0800

Good women don't support the destruction of locally-owned small businesses in response to police brutality across town.

Kasi

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:07:40 -0800

As a matter of fact, he was resisting. The cops told him to sit down, but he still got up, which is when they restrained him.

Kasi

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:58:40 -0800

The truth is that while Oscar's death is tragic, it would not have happened if he hadn't resisted arrest.

Kasi

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:54:22 -0800

>>the gun went off by itself murder presupposes intent. Why would the cop would have wanted to kill the guy? The cop pulled the gun, with the intent to kill, because...? I am not saying it couldn't be murder, but it seems highly unlikely.

Kasi

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:44:04 -0800

True. It is also true that we don't know whether it was a murder.

RinconHillSF

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:31:19 -0800

Too bad all of these young people focus their energies on destruction and violence. When did America stop teaching its children to focus on working to help lift their brothers and sisters up? Last night's events are not promising for America's future.

Wagnerian

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:16:26 -0800

You mean after the cop who murdered a dude goes to jail?

bornandraised

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:11:40 -0800

I think this is in the same line (though not of the same magnitude) as people blocking off castro and 18th after prop 8 -- hurting your own community because you are pissed at someone else. its almost like we want to wreak havoc but we wont step outside our own comfort zones to do so. i agree the brock may be a bit less vehement on these posts than on prop8, which could be bias, but what do you expect from a human? zero bias?! thats the real joke. its noting the bias and coming to terms with it that makes us better people, not ignoring it and acting like it doesnt exist

manys

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:53:45 -0800

Right. "The gun just went off by itself!"

manys

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:50:38 -0800

Guess what? Murder is also a felony. Go figure.

rzu

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:37:49 -0800

I'm sure the Chronicle went out of their way to find the most intelligent, articulate protester and quote them as they usually do.

AugustCJohnson

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:33:49 -0800

No, I'm not equating anything or speaking for anyone's philosophy other than my own. My point is that movements for justice typically have two strands: one of compromise and one of antagonism. they go hand in hand and are not mutually exclusive. Without one or the other the movement becomes irrelevant. Last night was a primal roar from a frustrated community, perhaps they could have acted more constructively, but I'd have to say they acted fairly tepidly compared to what happens in Greece or France when they kill unarmed youngsters.

AugustCJohnson

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:25:08 -0800

Sounds like a good woman and a bunch of faceless yuppies are trying to ruin her good name. Who do you work for, katerose? Put your name, face, and telephone on this site, why don't you?

spysea

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:22:51 -0800

Looking forward to seeing those 100+ arrested , pay huge fines , idiots

katerose26

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:22:33 -0800

Regarding Nia Sykes and her, uh, illuminating statement. Ms. Sykes works for the California Coalition for Women Prisoners: http://www.womenprisoners.org/fire/000733.html/fire/000733.html (scroll down) You stay classy Nia Sykes.

winstonsmith

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:22:18 -0800

yeah, they all ring a bell. and in the end, none of them were the reason the civil rights movement succeeded. MLK was the ultimate reason. and i really hope you're not equating what happened last night with the philosophies of malcom x and the black panther party. because really, that argument makes absolutely no sense and is brutally ignorant.

Doctor Memory

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:20:21 -0800

Thank you, RCP whackjobs, for making 1000+ peaceful protestors look like idiots. Way to go, Avakianoids! Viva la masturbacion!

AugustCJohnson

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:16:19 -0800

Maybe people need to riot. It's like a steam valve letting out pressure. It's good for society. Furthermore, I am outraged over the daily violence of life in our inner cities, as are most of the folks who live there, but I don't speak for them, they can do that for themselves and last night we heard what they had to say. I hope they keep saying it. From Oakland to Greece...

travin

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:13:49 -0800

he video shot from the left actually seems to show a moment of surprise in the body language of the shooter after the shot. That often happens when you shoot things, especially a human, especially if you're inexperienced with such things. It means nothing regarding ones motivation or affectations of remorse. In fact, if you want to read body language, his response was in reaction to his fellow officers glares and body language, "Don't worry, I've put my gun away." A very calculated response of subservience and self-preservation, not one of remorse.

AugustCJohnson

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:11:52 -0800

The civil rights movement wouldn't have achieved a thing without it's militant wing. Black Panthers? Malcolm X? Watts? Ring a bell?

grumblor

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:11:37 -0800

Likewise.

grumblor

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:10:10 -0800

I agree. However, fighting on a transit system is not a minor offense. There are innocent people just trying to get home on those trains who can get caught up in the violence. On top of that, there is nowhere to run to on a moving train, making the predicament even worse.

AugustCJohnson

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:09:14 -0800

He wasn't resisting, he was on his stomach, face down, handcuffed.

winstonsmith

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:48:25 -0800

right on to joel. ACJ, you throw words and phrases around like 'state,' 'righteous fury,' and 'deaf ears.' deaf ears indeed. why the fuck should this 'protest' been seen as anything other than thugs parading around destroying belongings of people that had nothing to do with this tragedy? yes, what happened was a tragedy - there's no doubt about that. but oakland itself is a fucking tragedy. one kid who is supposedly resisting arrest gets killed and people riot. a black man gets shot daily in that town and what do people do? nothing. they sit around as the murder rate climbs. no action is taken. why don't you (or whomever) use the leverage you have and force social change? because it's always 'the man' or the 'state' keeping you down. bullshit. organize. educate. mob violence never solved anything (read your history). someone else mentioned the peaceful marches of the civil rights era in the south. where are those marches calling for change in oakland over the past several years?

oskarv

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:46:56 -0800

when getting arrested by the police for a minor offense is life-threatening, there's a huge problem with the police department.

Wagnerian

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:40:01 -0800

You digust me.

SFMichael

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:37:01 -0800

Joel, that was incredibly well stated and I concur with everything you said.

what

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:35:25 -0800

Watch out, police! If you keep this up, we'll trash another neighborhood where you don't live. See if we don't!

grumblor

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:32:58 -0800

Why aren't these people this angry when black people get shot by each other every other night of the year? Oakland is one of the most violent places in the country Why only when an idiot who was fighting on a train was resisting arrest and gets shot by a cop (whether right or wrong)? If you resist arrest you take your life in your hands. If you don't trust the police, don't put yourself in a position to be face down and cuffed by them.

regimemachine

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:32:34 -0800

Yeah, except competent, rational people wouldn't be starting fights on BART at 2AM to begin with. It's not like Oscar Grant was totally innocent in all of this. He shouldn't have been shot, and I honestly hope that cop does hard time in prison, however, if he was really a loving father, maybe he should have been at home with his daughter celebrating the new year rather than on BART fighting with other people at 2am? Hm?

mariconsoy

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:30:24 -0800

I don't condone the violence of the march/riot. But didn't the authorities set up the perfect storm to start this? The blue code of silence kicked in, the DA has done nothing, the cop won't talk and quit his job and more than a week has gone by without any leadership from the authorities. If that isn't the match to light the fire, what is?

Joel

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:24:57 -0800

I doubt it since, unlike Mr. Grant, I'm not in the habit of being arrested or engaging in criminal activity, so I don't cross paths with cops too often. I'm not saying he deserved to be shot. I'm not even saying this cop shouldn't be arrested right fucking now. But for people to act like this was just some guy shot in the back while walking down the street simply because he was a black man, or because we live in a police state, is a fucking farce. And burning shit down at this juncture is a joke--justice here has not been denied at this time. No one's been cleared, no one's ben acquitted. Because he hasn't been arrested yet? It's been a week. Fuck, why hasn't anyone burned down the city because of it's stratospheric murder rate? Gangs and drugs in that town have killed far more black men than an incompetent cop. Where's your outrage over that?

KatyG

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:17:12 -0800

If you want justice for Mr. Grant, then you deal with the justice system (yeah, good luck with that). If you want to deal a blow to the people who institutionally brutalize black men, then you go to them and do that. But then you'd have to strike at the cops, right? Much easier to beat up a cop car and break a bunch of windows than strike at people who can, and do, shoot back. Or maybe Ms. Topka and her small business are a part of that system somehow and I don’t see it.

AugustCJohnson

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:08:55 -0800

What do you care? Maybe next time it'll be you laying dead face down on the subway platform.

Wagnerian

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:02:17 -0800

WORD.

Joel

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:01:04 -0800

nothing you say matters right now, get it? You're right. Burn Oakland down on behalf of this thug felon that put himself in the position of being killed by a violent and/or incompetent cop...what do I care

oskarv

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:56:44 -0800

the people who were breaking store windows and cars were a small minority of the protesters. it's unfortunate they felt they had to be so destructive. at least it got lots of attention from the media. their anger has definitely been heard. hopefully this doesn't need to happen again.

whosthatdog

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:55:55 -0800

violence doesn't solve violence. imagine the impact of a candlelight vigil through the streets of oakland. is this still a possibility? the officer should be arrested. the people of oakland need to see that something is being done. all thats going on right now is bart covering their asses and floating half baked theories. we've all seen the videos. we all know what happened. it's been over a week now, there is no excuse for him to be free without making any sort of statement to the police. he is now a citizen, arrest him. also, dellums is a joke. but we already knew that. so incompetent/irrelevant.

AugustCJohnson

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:55:50 -0800

Hey, look I don't support mindless vandalism. I didn't throw the brick through this woman's window. But my point is that on-line yuppie commentators really love to tell other people how to conduct their struggles. nothing you say matters right now, get it? The state would love to make these kids appear to be monsters, but I'm sure they intend to be much worse. This is a righteous fury, best get out the way. Your complaints fall on deaf ears. These folks want justice for their dead friend. The media always demonizes the way people resist. Where's your rage for Oscar Grant?

mattymatt

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:52:08 -0800

These protesters should be more careful! Somebody might get shot.

Wagnerian

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:51:37 -0800

You know what? Even if the cop thought he was about to tazer Oscar Grant, Oscar Grant was on his stomach and unarmed. It was police brutality. The cop shot the kid in the back, and now him and all the other cops just sit silent protecting each other. The silence itself is criminal.

Kasi

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:45:27 -0800

Again, we don't know whether it was a murder. The video shot from the left actually seems to show a moment of surprise in the body language of the shooter after the shot. -- What is disconcerting, however, is the silence of the police and the DA, too. The shooter must be prosecuted to the full extent of the law for whatever he did, be it negligent homicide or murder.

SFBurke

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:42:48 -0800

And your point is?

SFX

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:41:24 -0800

thank god. that reinforces my faith in historic perspectives.

SFBurke

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:40:46 -0800

These protesters are idiots. If they want to show their support for Oscar Grant then they should just trash each others apartments and cars -- then we would know that they were comitted to their cause. Otherwise they just look like a bunch of hooligans (which of course they are). @ACJ: I don't think it is too much to ask that people respect the legal process. There is no evidence of a cover-up here and no history of BART police killing innocent people. Every indication is that BART, the DA, and all other authorities are taking this matter very seriously and that justice will be done. So why should people destroy property, attack police, and endanger lives when there is nothing to protest? And, ACJ, if you don't think these riots are violence, you are just as idiotic as these protesters. Apparently you believe that the protesters would be justified in doing anything short of murder. How does that make any sense? Is that really the society you want to live in? Most people want to live in a civilized society -- deal with it.

Wagnerian

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:40:00 -0800

Nobody was murdered. The White Night Riots were NOT peaceful. Neither was Stonewall.

izzyizzy

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:39:23 -0800

a viscous pace? it's been 8 days. it's a murder investigation. especially considering the incredible circumstances and public interest surrounding this case, wouldn't you rather they do it right?

aj

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:39:02 -0800

No, the WTO protest looks completely moronic from a historic perspective.

SFX

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:37:00 -0800

given some time and positive media coverage, this protest will seem downright heroic -- like the WTOs in seattle.

aj

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:36:18 -0800

The Prop 8 protests were peaceful.

bornandraised

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:34:39 -0800

while I am not suprised, since my generation is HORRIBLE at being productive demonstrators, but I am in no way pleased. in fact, I am downright PISSED. violence doesn't solve violence. there is a REASON the southern marches worked, and I am none too surprised that protesters were trying to incite the police simply so they could get photos of themselves being "manhandled by the man." There are people out there who are honestly abused by policemen, but inciting this sort of action simply belittles the times when it happens due to real hatred, it makes it seem cheap.

aj

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:33:52 -0800

Where are YOUR windows, AugustCJohnson? OK with people smashing them, are you?

Wagnerian

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:33:21 -0800

So...this 'riot' happened in my neighborhood. I don't think it was a riot. What it was was a march of some very furious people, who then got chased by riot police. The police made it worse. Most of the marchers were very young. Like in the 19 to 20 range. I marched with them for about 3 minutes until I had to start running from cops with batons. I guess I agree with August. I'm annoyed that these kids would come to my neighborhood and trash it, but I'm ABSOLUTELY ENRAGED at the murder of Oscar Grant, and of the now week long silence by the police involved in the shooting. The history of cops shooting people shows that cops are never held accountable. This situation, this silence is an outrage. It's beyond outrageous. I may wish that the marchers last night were a bit more disciplined, but it's small change compared to the murder and the police silence. I guess I gotta say I hate the way you have cherry picked from the Chron article, Brock... Often you post these things about political action in the Bay Area and you have this attitude where you seem like you are so 'above it all' or something. Unless, of course, it's about anti Prop 8 stuff. Go figure. That whole comment you made the other day about Oscar Grant murder protests being premature was absolutely nauseating. Do you need to watch the video again? Would the protests make more sense to you if Oscar was white or gay? What if he were your son? What if ? What if...?

gnpasquali

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:32:58 -0800

The comment from a protester on SFGate goes on: "I feel like the night is going great," said Nia Sykes, 24, of San Francisco, one of the demonstrators. "I feel like Oakland should make some noise. This is how we need to fight back. It's for the murder of a black male." Sykes, who is black, had little sympathy for the owner of Creative African Braids. "She should be glad she just lost her business and not her life," Sykes said. The most infuriating part is the lack of sympathy for other innocent people, when supposedly this was out of solidarity/sympathy for Oscar Grant. That she says "she should be glad she just lost her business and not her life" is just beyond comprehension. Who are you?

Kasi

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:25:14 -0800

I expect folks to stick to the law. Last time I checked destroying property was a felony. Furthermore, this violence is unrelated to the tragic death of Oscar Grant. The community should not have to tolerate hooliganism or, worse, riot tourists like Nia Sykes. Finally, we don't know whether the killing of Oscar Grant was a murder.

KatyG

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:19:57 -0800

A) Nice use of the word "viscous," Brock. B) I expect men to control themselves and to not smash in the window of a small business owned by a black woman with a family and therefore take money out of her pocket for repair (and likely have her insurance rates rise) when protesting the unjustifiable death of a black man. But it sure is easier to do that than to overrun a police station, right? You know, bring violence to the people whio inflicted the violence. Much easier to strike at someone who can't strike back.

SFX

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:17:16 -0800

anyone wondering why the world's a mess? see above.

AugustCJohnson

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 08:59:25 -0800

How do we expect folks to react? They're furious. Smashing a few windows isn't violence, murdering an unarmed man is violence. save your tears for him. this isn't a parade it's a wrecking ball, deal with it.

aj

Thu, 08 Jan 2009 08:55:49 -0800

Because if anyone supports negligent BART cops, it's locally owned small businesses. WTF?