SFist: Yelp Day Never Happened: Prop 8 Related?

travin

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 12:49:19 -0800

brock said: goodness gracious. LOL. That made me think of Aunt Bee from the Andy Griffith show.

Brock Keeling

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 12:43:27 -0800

goodness gracious. what is going on over here?

The Angry Young Man

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 12:32:04 -0800

Your point?

travin

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 12:15:52 -0800

http://www.gothamistllc.com/mediakit/legal.php

The Angry Young Man

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 11:04:11 -0800

@Travin: I'm afraid that you're the one who is misinformed. Censorship presupposes a right to free speech and and as we've well established, that right simply doesn't exist in a private setting like Yelp. Censorship is suppression of speech. When you choose to use their service, you choose to play by their rules, which includes the guidelines they've laid down for what is and what is not acceptable speech within their domain. When you agree to abide by a TOU, you can't later claim that your speech rights have in any way been violated if the powers that be determine that what you've said is in violation of the rules they've established. Sorry. As far as your silly attempt at insulting my intelligence, I'll call you out on that right this minute. Brock Keeling has deleted comments I've made here on a few occasions and never have you "gotten my back" in regards to his "censorship," so spare me, please.

travin

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 10:39:28 -0800

@TAYM, it's not difficult to understand Terms of Service. You've mentioned it before. We get it. In fact I've penned a couple myself. But you and anyone else that thinks that only a government can censor, you're horribly misinformed and in for a very rude awakening. But that's ok, I and others will have your back. Hopefully after you've educated yourself on this subject, you can have our back too.

bluecanary

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 09:16:52 -0800

And while I'm on my rant, you could call the views of the KKK a simple difference of political opinion as well. Are you tolerant of their political views? Some political views are simply not worthy of tolerance or respect.

bluecanary

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 09:14:45 -0800

@sfburke: I did not say that political disputes should be handled through economic intimidation. I said I want to make informed decisions as to where I spend my money. And I find Prop 8 to be a little bit more than a "difference of political opinion." This isn't a differing view of how to solve the homeless issue, or how best to resolve the Iraq issue. This is an issue of basic human rights. And yes, I am extremely intolerant of people who think they have the right to single out a minority, strip them of their rights, and treat them as second class citizens, because their sky fairy told them to. As for Barack Obama, I was disgusted with his stance on gay marriage, and said so early and often. However, when it came time to vote, do I want the guy who is in favor of repealing DOMA and supports civil unions, or the guy who runs with the crazy woman who thinks humans rode dinosaurs, and wants a ban on gay marriage written into the constitution. He's not the greatest on gay marriage, but he is far away better than the alternative.

The Angry Young Man

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 08:03:40 -0800

@SFBurke: Prop 8 is not merely about a difference in politics, it's about allowing a majority to deprive a minority of fundamental civil rights through a simple vote. This process runs contrary to everything our constitution stands for. Minority rights are not determined by mob rule and the day they are, is the day we as a nation are absolutely done for. It both saddens and sickens me that in this day and age some people in this state look at their fellow citizens and see human garbage unworthy of full equality under the law. @Travin: SFBurke is correct. Censorship is a government action. Yelp is not guilty of censorship simply because it deletes posts that violate the TOU you as a user agree to adhere to when you use their site. @RinconHillSF: http://californiansagainsthate.com/

travin

Tue, 09 Dec 2008 00:41:04 -0800

SFBurke says: Censorship is something the government does, not something the a private company can do. You're kidding, right?

Jeremy_ofSF

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:26:24 -0800

I don't know about all of that, but props to the duck with the ball gag.

RinconHillSF

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 21:52:34 -0800

So is one of the LGBT rights organizations in town maintaining a list of what businesses to avoid?

SFBurke

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 21:22:29 -0800

@Travin: Once you bring up censorship with respect to Yelp you show how off the deep end you are. Censorship is something the government does, not something the a private company can do. Yelp (like the New York Times or SF Weekly or whatever) can decide what content it wants to provide. In this case, it has decided that its purposes is to provide reviews of business that rate the actual quality of service provided by those businesses. It has decided not to provide reviews of business based solely on the political agendas of certain fanatics. From the point of view of most Yelp users, that is a reasonable decision and enhances the value of the site for us. For that small minority of people who are so close-minded that they could not possibly consider doing business with someone who holds different political opinions from them, there is always the option of forming their own Yelp-substitute that rates business based on progessive-ideological purity. Feel free to set that up that site and report to us how many dozen hits that site receives each day.

SFBurke

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 21:11:45 -0800

@bluecanary: I notice that you did not mention whether or not you were boycotting business that supported Barrack Obama. That aside, you are saying that political disputes should be decided by economic intimidation. I actually think a ballot box is a better way of doing it. In any case, as is typical you bring up the absurd example of the KKK. Rather than actually trying to understand why somebody might reasonably oppose Prop 8. you demonize them and associate them with racism. Yes, you are close-minded and you are intolerant of anybody who holds a differnt opinion than you (at least on this very narrow issue; but, of course, with respect to Barrack Obama you are willing to make an exception and actually vote for him). Unfortunately, you are like so many SF Progressives -- tolerant of anybody except those who disagree with you.

The Angry Young Man

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:07:02 -0800

Do you by chance have any opinions about Haliburton, Monsanto, Searle, Blackwater, NASA, Lockheed, Boeing, Rolls Royce, Bechtel etc? Do I have opinions about these companies/agency, yes. Can I review their products based upon my own personal experiences? That depends. Even so, all I can say are things like "The Boeing 737 is one of the most uncomfortable aircraft I've ever been a passenger on" or "Bechtel did a great job working with the City of Portland to extend their light rail system to PDX" or "Gee, I'm glad NASA forced us into space because Tang is damned tasty." These represent the limits of my personal experiences with these companies/agency.

travin

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 18:47:26 -0800

How can I as a consumer have an opinion on a company and its products unless I have actually engaged the company in business and/or used their products? Do you by chance have any opinions about Haliburton, Monsanto, Searle, Blackwater, NASA, Lockheed, Boeing, Rolls Royce, Bechtel etc?

The Angry Young Man

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 18:05:41 -0800

@Travin: where our difference of opinion lies is that you believe that a person must be a direct customer of a reviewed business before they can offer an opinion. Yes, of course. How can I as a consumer have an opinion on a company and its products unless I have actually engaged the company in business and/or used their products? How does the president of Bigot Contracting in exotic Riverside having donated 1,000 American dollars to Yes on 8 in any way, shape, or form cast light on the quality of Bigot Contractors' work or products? It doesn't. It has no relevance whatsoever. I would not actively support a company that funds discrimination against me and I agree that this information is important. However, Yelp is not the proper forum for disseminating that information. Yelp exists for members of the public to give their opinion on the business and/or it's services and products, not the political activities of the company or it's employees. There are other websites for that. And yeah, Yelp is a private company but that doesn't preclude censorship. I beg to differ. Yelp has a TOU like any other user driven website out there. Deleting posts that violate the TOU is not censorship because you as the user agree to adhere to the TOU when you choose to use the site. That's not censorship. From Yelp's TOU: You agree that you will not (and will not permit others to) a) use the Site to threaten, stalk, defraud, incite, harass, or advocate the harassment of another person, or otherwise interfere with a User's enjoyment of the Site Identifying someone's personal political contributions when they have no bearing on the business being reviewed can be construed as a violation of the above.

travin

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 17:07:32 -0800

TAYM, where our difference of opinion lies is that you believe that a person must be a direct customer of a reviewed business before they can offer an opinion. And I'm saying that interaction with the public makes everyone customers because their behavior affects everyone their efforts come into contact--even if it's a contribution to a political campaign, for good or bad, because it affects everyone in the community, state, or nation. I can see that offering a review based upon heresay "my cousin's brother's wife's mother-in-law hated this restaurant" or "they yelled at my sister over the phone, they suck." is a very bad idea. But in this case we're talking about "public record shows this company contributed to a political campaign supporting discrimination, don't shop here" is a far cry different and I think useful information, even if I don't happen to agree with it. And yeah, Yelp is a private company but that doesn't preclude censorship.

dolemite43

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 14:56:34 -0800

I agree with TAYM. All in all Yelp wins this one. It's shown in this tread that regular people are willing to take most Yelp reviews as truth - whether it's a review about their political leanings or one about their actual service.

The Angry Young Man

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 14:40:55 -0800

@Travin: a.) The difference between the two examples you cited and the scenario I described is contact - your imaginary consumer would be writing a review based on actual interaction with the business. In the situation I described, people are writing reviews of businesses with which they've never had any contact. That's not a review of a business and that's what Yelp is all about - reviewing businesses. b.) There's no censorship here. Yelp is a privately owned business, not a government agency. Accordingly it's completely within their rights to control the content on their website. I mean, really, Travin, Brock Keeling deletes content on SFist all the time. I don't see you threatening to sic any angered lesbian activists all over him, now do I? c.) Consumer protection laws exist to protect the consumer from dangerous or shoddily made products, not from the political contributions of a business's employees. I suspect you're conflating consumer protection laws with laws banning racial discrimination or similar. These are two completely different things. d.) As far as I'm aware, Yelp simply provides a forum whereby members of the public can voice their opinions of goods and services provided by various businesses, etc. Granted, Gavin Newsom is reviewed on Yelp, so it goes beyond businesses. I don't believe it's within Yelp's purview to define any kind of responsibility a business may have towards customers, etc. that's not what that website is for. Maybe you should contact the Chamber of Commerce.

travin

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 14:23:41 -0800

TAYM, so you're saying if I contacted a business via phone or email, because let's face it a lot of companies these days don't have a storefront, and received shitty treatment, Yelp would deem that post a deletable offense? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the use of Yelp. What if you had gone to an event and a person that owns a PR firm yelled at you and threw a rip-roaring, drink-flinging tantrum for whatever reason. Are you saying that that isn't fodder for comment on Yelp as a reflection of that business? I think it's warranted and not allowing something like that is censorship. Especially since there's all manner of ways a business can treat people poorly without them actually being customers. This is one of the reasons we have consumer protection laws. It seems you, Yelp and others are too narrowly defining a business' responsibilities to their customers, actual or potential, and their community.

bluecanary

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 14:14:08 -0800

@sfburke: You say close-minded like it's a bad thing. I suppose refusing to give money to a group that donates to for instance, the KKK, is also be close-minded. Yes, I am entirely close-minded to bigotry and intolerance, and I hardly think that should be viewed as some kind of failing. In fact, I think what would be far worse is to be so blase, self-centered, and unconcerned with where your money is going that you have no problem giving money to whomever, whenever, provided they have what you want at the best price, biggest convenience, etc.

The Angry Young Man

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 13:37:56 -0800

@Bluecanary/Travin: As I understand it, people were posting reviews of businesses without actually ever having patronized those businesses, along the lines of: "Like I've never actually shopped at Business A and now I never will because Employee B donated 10,000 American dollars to Yes on 8 which makes him like a total hater. Therefore, anyone who shops at Business A is just bowing down to the patriarchy." While I would agree that this kind of information is useful, it's not what Yelp is all about. On the contrary, it completely defeats Yelp's purpose to have these kinds of "reviews" up on their site. There are plenty of other sites out there listing what businesses to avoid if one feels like boycotting.

SFBurke

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 13:12:25 -0800

BlueCanary: I assume then that you are boycotting any business that supported Obama as Obama opposes gay marriage. Correct? People can do what they want but it seems like an weird way to live one's life that one won't do business with someone who has different political opinions. Maybe that is the price of being progressive or maybe it just suggests that one is, in fact, very close-minded.

travin

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 13:04:41 -0800

cowsaysmeow, how is knowledge that the business contributed to a political campaign not direct enough to warrant comment? AFAIC, that's direct knowledge of the business and worthy of comment. If you're thinking someone has to walk in the door or actually have some sort of contact with them to validate a review, then your narrow view is excluding all manner of contacts with a company, be it voicemail, direct marketing mailings, website, email, or even some guy rubber-banding a brochure onto your stoop. Every contact is direct contact with a business. Even if it's limited to a spreadsheet showing their political contributions.

cowsaysmeow

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 12:52:45 -0800

As an active user on Yelp, I could give a rat's ass about Yelp Day. Ultimately, to me it's just a big whatever and I have to admit I giggled slightly when it was cancelled. However, the reasons why it was cancelled are pretty stupid - Yelp gets a lot of flak, sometimes deserved, but often not. If Yelp kept reviews up that the reviewer clearly posted out of spite and anger and not for actual firsthand knowledge of the business in question, the site would be useless and a total joke (yes, I'm aware some of you feel this way already). It's bad enough that some people will give a 1 star review and write something like "OMG that bitch fired me and the people there really suck, and my friend got some attitude once from someone when she was trying to call me zero stars if i could! LOL" - putting up purely anti-Prop. 8 reviews with no direct experience with the business would be just as bad. It's very easy to find out who contributed to Prop. 8, and the link has been posted numerous times on the Yelp talk threads, on SFGate, here, and just about everywhere else. I should stress that I have zero problem with a review that said something like "I used to go to blah blah blah, but since I learned they supported Prop. 8 I'll be taking my business elsewhere." If I want specific news and information, I can do that research on my own - I don't need Yelp to tell me that, and it's not Yelp's responsibility either.

bennyinsf

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 12:26:21 -0800

bluecanary: I agree with you.

bluecanary

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 11:58:56 -0800

I disagree that Yelp is not for reviews pointing out the owners' leanings. I appreciate reviews like those. I think such information is entirely relevant to shoppers wanting to make informed decisions as to where they spend their money. I would not want to give my money to an establishment that is going to turn around and use my cash to fund political initiatives I find utterly abhorrent.

travin

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 11:57:46 -0800

I think it's perfectly reasonable that folks would object to removal of reviews. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Yelp's raison d'etre to provide the community the opportunity to review a businesses behavior? It shouldn't matter if their behavior was bribing health inspectors or giving free meals to local church goers. If they're doing something it is fair game to report. Other than abusive or illegal content, I don't recall Yelp having limitation over what can be posted. If they're making a distinction over what's 'appropriate' they're in for some serious trouble.

The Angry Young Man

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 10:50:36 -0800

@SF Joe: Fair enough. However, don't you think the Mayor's Office should let this company know that they aren't getting their special day after they've already been told by everyone in City Hall that they are?

SFJoe

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 10:39:16 -0800

Yelp is a privately-owned business but the City of San Francisco is not. SF is perfectly within its rights to decline to give free publicity to any business for whatever reason. We dont' have to declare a special day to every douche that comes along.

beer glasses

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 10:38:48 -0800

I love the Folsom St. Goose...

withak

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 10:31:57 -0800

Is it more ridiculous that there was a Yelp Day in the first place, or that Yelp Day got canceled for a reason like this?

RinconHillSF

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 10:30:44 -0800

This isn't a slap at my friends at Yelp - just a general comment on "proclamations" Why do we have proclamations for businesses that aren't based on their giving back to the community? If we're going to spend a minute typing up a certificate or something in City Hall, I would hope it is to thank a company for its goodwill that benefits the public at large in San Francisco ...

The Angry Young Man

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 10:20:08 -0800

Stupid. Yelp is a privately owned business that provides a forum for public review of goods and services. I would agree with Yelp management that it's inappropriate to use their service to pass on information about the political leanings of third parties. That's not what Yelp is for and I can hardly blame them for rejecting attempts to hijack their site. If this assertion about the Mayor's office are true, I have to laugh. I mean why is it that passive aggressiveness of this nature is so acceptable in American public discourse? Gavin Newsom is a lowly turd.

aj

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 10:14:04 -0800

Prop 8 + Yelp? This will surely get 50 comments.