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Before we get to the nitty-gritty, we just want to make sure that everyone knows that tonight's Prop 8 town hall at the Veteran's Building has been postponed indefinitely. We'll let you know if there's an update on that. UPDATE! We've just received tons of new information about upcoming events. It's all pasted after the jump.
Everybody got it? Okay, good. Now, on to the details:
We'd say between 75 and 100 people showed up for the panel discussion "Prop 8 and Race: What's Next?" The title of the talk -- "what's next" -- is an excellent question, and it was only answered in the vaguest possible terms. Teamwork! Cooperation! Back-patting and thoughtful introspection! Outreach and community building! Oh, okay.
If there is a specific strategy for starting work on any of those lovely action items, we didn't hear it. And y'know, some of the people on the panel and in the audience were staffers on the official campaign. Hm. How is it that we keep finding ourselves in this fog?
But that's not to say that it was a total waste. If nothing else, the meeting accomplished a sort of consensus: that we must do more to address the problems of racism and homophobia, that blacks and gays should not be enemies, and that there's not a lot of use in playing the "who's suffering more" game. Of course, it's not hard to get a roomful of the most socially concerned people in San Francisco to agree that the world ought to be a peaceful place. But there's value in getting everyone on the same page, so nice work there.
After the jump: surprising news about the campaign, and our hero Luis.
Of the speakers, Bevan Dufty and Amos Brown were the most engaging. Bevan said "I don't feel the No On 8 campaign was culturally competent," and made good points about the idiotic protest in the Castro on Saturday: that if they really wanted to reach an audience, they should have gone to Viz Valley, rather than harassing a neighborhood that voted 97% against Prop 8. And Amos Brown is what you might call a "fiery preacher," in that he held a wide-eyed audience in his palm and he roared about the civil rights fight in the south, that we must unite behind the common cause of freedom and equality, and declared that "racism, sexism, homophobia ... they're all in the same family." There was a standing ovation for that.
Other speakers, some of them African American, declared their mortification at the outcome of Prop 8, and asked each other "what's next" several times. Answers were never more specific than "analyze campaign strategy" and "deeper organization" and "we have to be honest about racism and homophobia and talk about it."
But this is interesting: you know how everyone's saying that the official campaign didn't reach out to non-caucasian communities? According to some of the speakers, the campaign did target minorities. They referred to church outreach, targeted phone banks, mailers, newspaper ads, town halls -- all of which surprised us, since to hear most people talk, the campaign didn't even know that black people existed. It's good to hear that there was at least some outreach, even if it clearly wasn't enough.
Then it was time for audience comments, which are always a mixed bag. The most controversial came from a man in a floppy hat who stated that homophobia in the black community is far more pernicious than racism in the gay community. There was an angry hubbub from the crowd at that; and while it could easily be argued that he's right, it doesn't seem like a totally useful observation. Okay, fine, gays suffer and sometimes certain people are mean. Welcome to life.
The best audience comment came from a guy name Luis, who told an O. Henry-ish story about how he went and protested in public, then later discovered that his family had voted for Prop 8 because he forgot to reach out to them. Ouch! And then he went on to talk about how he decided not to stay in SF for the protests, and instead went to Walnut Creek. He said he looked around at the thousands of people in San Francisco and decided, "I am not needed here," and off he went, to reach out to people who weren't on our side yet, but might be one day.
Luis, as far as we are concerned, was the hero of the evening. He's the only one who demonstrated an answer to the question, "what's next?"
Image: Ted Weinstein
More upcoming events:
What's Going On: Roundtable Discussion on Prop. 8, Thursday, November 20th, @ 522 Valencia St., b/t 16th & 17th, 7 PM
o November 4th's election was a historic event: not only for the record turnout of voters to elect the first Black president of the United States, but also for the contradictory passage of Proposition 8 in California, overturning the California supreme court's decision legalizing marriage for all.
o This will be a roundtable, participatory discussion with opening comments from Left activists, No on 8 organizers, LGBTQ activists and others.
o For more information, call: 415-431-1918.
· BACORR Town-hall Meeting Wednesday, November 19, 6:30pm
o Women's Building: 3543 18th Street in the mission, on 18th between Guerrero and Valencia, in room B
o Brainstorming for BACORR and other groups' event organizing
o Contact: Marit Knutson (BACORR & Radical Women) 206 354 2692, myxomarit@yahoo.com
· Million Gay March Carpools to Sacramento protest – Sat, Nov 22
o Milliongaymarch.org
· Stonewall Democrats Debrief, November 23 - Sacramento
· Prop 8 Protest at the Embarcadero "Keep the momentum going" (Rally) – November - San Francisco
o Host: Proud American, Disappointed Californian Start Time:
o 4 Embarcadeo Center
o 5:30-8:30pm
o To see more details and RSVP: http://www.facebook.com/n/?event.php&eid=49643765179
· API Equality Debrief, Nov 22 – San Francisco
o Constituents & coalition partners
o Planning next steps, increase participation
· Tell Your Story - Change the World – November 23, 2-4pm
o Youth with one or more LGBT parent(s) in 3rd to 12th
o Embarcadero YMCA 169 Steuart Street, SF
o Please RSVP by Wednesday November 19th - monica@colage.org or 415-861-5437
· San Mateo Vigils, Mondays 5-6pm (ongoing) – Peninsula locations
o Organized by UU
o Vigils previously in SM, Redwood City, PA
o Contact Emily: elehranning@gmail.com
· Albany No On 8 Forum/Panel – December 3
o Parents, school groups, and community groups invited
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Clearly "what's next" is a number of useless roundtable discussions
I agree that homophobia in the black community may be more wide spread than racism in the gay community, but it could never be argued that the former is more 'pernicious' or any way more harmful, simply due to the relative numbers of both groups, and the economic and social power gays v blacks.
But this is not particularly helpful to the cause of ridding us of prop 8. An article in slate recently argued that the key is sex and gender roles more than race, or homophobia. I don't know if that is correct either, but it is interesting to consider, especially as it concerns outreach into communities that voted for the ban.
Luis needs to be appointed head of some sort of effort.
Brock, although I whole-heatedly agree that Luis' effort was different than everyone else do you think it's possible that we collectively got into this mess because we're so desperate for any sort of leadership that we'd anoint someone that simply had a slightly different idea?
Travin, I was being hyperbolic, swept up his tale of Walnut Creek. I really don't know anything about Luis and wouldn't actually promote him to any position of power. II'll try making myself more clear in the future.
What I find most confusing about this article is that it seems to suggest that "blacks" are the only "non-whites" in the bay area, or that somehow "blacks" are more homophobic than other races. Not only is this totally illogical, it really isn't stating anything relevant to the cause. When you start off on the wrong foot, it's hard to get anywhere significant with your argument.
The other thing is that I believe the gay community does itself a disservice by comparing homophobia to racism or sexism. A gay male can live a perfectly normal life without any discrimination simply by not disclosing that he is gay. A female or person of colour does not have that luxury, and face many more economic struggles. Add to this the racism and sexism WITHIN the gay community and you are left with very little empathy, which is why it is not a correct approach to make the comparison in the first place.
Personally, I do not agree with gay marriage (nothing to do with religion), BUT, having said that, I voted no on Proposition 8. The reason I voted no is because it is none of my business who someone else decides to marry. If my neighbor wanted to marry a goat, that would be their business and we are all graced with free will. I've never heard of anything so retarded as people believing they have a right to vote on somebody else's rights and personal decisions. I feel that if this approach was taken, many more individuals may have understood the magnitude of the situation rather than thinking it was some sort of political joke, and many of my friends in the gay community agree.
The conversation was interesting. But I will say that I do get tired of the "The Civil Rights Movement" versus "the civil rights movement" discussion that came up several times. Oppression is oppression ...
I also would like our discussions to focus on why domestic partnerships are not equal to marriage. One of the false memes in the debate has been that LGBT already have all the same rights and are just fighting for a name ... that is false and needs to be corrected.
We also need to tell our stories. People need to understand that we have families and our families need protecting. We are tax paying members of the community and whether you like us or not, we're not going away.
I do agree with Fnreedie that we need to tell our stories. Luckily, I have already done all the legwork for you. Feel free to distribute far and wide.
"A gay male can live a perfectly normal life without any discrimination simply by not disclosing that he is gay."
That is not true - not by the longest shot, tminus.
Tminus, imagine if you were a black man who decided to avoid discrimination by disguising yourself as a white person, or a woman avoiding discrimination by disguising yourself as a man. Imagine living like that every single hour of every single day, in a not-totally-convincing disguise, and in fear of being found out.
That is what "not disclosing that he is gay" is like.
My main motivation to be at the community Forum last night was not to find solutions. To do that we have to know what the problem is, and until this point as a community we have not been able to agree on the source of our defeat in the ballot. So I went to the forum to have a better sense of what is the feeling of the community about this topic. And on that sense I walked out having a better understanding.
We need to stop blaming others for our own mistakes. And we need to start taking actions
As I said in the Forum last night… I am the one to blame for the pass on 8. I am the one who protested in northern and southern California for hours. I am the one who talked on the press about the importance of equality for all. I am the one who outreached strangers on San Francisco streets. I am the one who was so busy trying to change the world that I forgot to change mine… I am the one whose family voted Yes on 8.
I am still hurt by that. But instead of being on my sofa screaming to a TV or being mad at my family, I am working in fixing my mistakes and building a more inclusive community. Education is the solution and we need to start educating one at the time.
While a priest can tell my family that homosexuality is wrong, I can show them that it is not. And that is where our power as a community relies, leading by example not by anger or frustration. We can not be seated and waiting for organizations or politicians to fix our problems. We have to stand and take control of our destiny
Oh, and btw… thank you for the nice words everyone.
Luis
Lguerrac(at)yahoo.com
Well we cannot stand on pedistals and assume the position of self-righteousness either. We all do our part, and while I won't list my efforts in bullet points, I believe it's important to realize that nothing gets done unless we all work together. How many steps you take and how large they are in comparison to someone else is totally irrelevant. Do what you do to be proud of yourself and have faith that others will follow. This is not a contest, and if you do it for the glory, then your heart is not true.
In regards to mattymatt's and Brock's comments, you've actually made my point perfectly, and I expected such a response. My point wasn't that it feels good to be in the closet. Many bi-racial (black / white) citizens passed as white, and still do. In that regard, I can see your point matty. But in general, your argument does not make sense and is irrelevant. On a human level, we should not be voting on who has the right to do what.
My point was that the focus should be on the fact that discrimination is discrimination rather than trying to compare it to some other form of injustice. The fact that anyone would discriminate against someone for ANY reason is wrong. And no, being gay is not like being a woman or person of colour. It never will be. Even the gay community does not fully embrace women or people of colour. But that is not the point, is it?
Comments of such abject ignorance entirely disqualifies you from being taken seriously.
Hi Travin, I appreciate and respect the fact that you have a right to your opinion, but I have in no way said anything disrespectful. In fact, these are the words of someone very close to me who happens to be gay.
It happens to be true. Tell me, since you clearly seem to know something I do not, how would I know that a white male is gay unless he told me so, or I happened to witness his lips wrapped around another man? Understand, I am not saying it feels GOOD to be in the closet or to hide who you are.
What I'm saying may make me an easy target, but your energy would be far better spent on those who would deny rights to every man, woman, and child. If we're not willing to work together, how can you expect anyone to care what's being said?
While I completely understand how last night was needed for venting, I felt that it would have been much more productive if we had been more like Luis and some of the others in talking about what we SHOULD do next. The past is nice to mourn but I wanted to hear more about what I can do: talking to my family, working with an organization to provide outreach to groups of color, etc. I wanted to know why we as a community are so stuck on this notion that in order to win over the christian vote we have to dispute the bible. Honestly, my grandmother says the bible says its wrong, and so does her church, but she voted no because she believes that the bible isn't the guidebook to our constitution, nor vice versa. (I love that little old lady) Why aren't we taking more of a stance about the separation of church and state?
oh yea and next time i think there should be a post sfist powwow. i assumed that the white guy who stood up sitting on the far right about 5 rows back asking a question and saying he had a website was mattymatt? please correct me if im wrong, i just had a theory and thought id shoot it out there. if so, hi! i was sitting like 4 people away from you.
Oh yes hello! That was me. The website is Stop8.org.
Again, statements as I pointed out, in addition to this one, make it very difficult to take you seriously. For example, where have I mentioned or accused you of being disrespectful? My one sentence statement is unequivocal yet somehow you've completely misunderstood and are spinning off on a tangent that, although convenient and face saving, has nothing to do with the comment you're responding too. That better known as a disconnect, makes it difficult to have a conversation and, again, to take you seriously.
Tell us, how is it respectful and logical in one sentence for you to discount a person's opinion, a person that is living a life and lifestyle with which you admittedly are only vaguely familiar, via proxy no less, yet turn around and state that your opinion on that life and lifestyle is fact?
Short answer: it's neither respectful, informed nor logical.
I for one am perfectly willing to work with other folks on these issues. But please pardon my desire to work with people that are informed, intelligent or at least compassionate enough to approach the subject without presuming to tell me how my life is, should or can be lived.
Hi Travin,
Ok, I will leave you to knit-pick and pull apart the details of my words as you wish.
We both have the right to free speech, but clearly you believe this only refers to people you "agree" with, just the same way many straight people believe that equal rights only refers to non-gays. And since, in your mind, I do not resemble someone you can agree with, never mind you clearly do not understand the root what I'm saying in the first place (or you just feel like arguing), I should simply be quiet and not be taken seriously. Ok, point taken... Got to love this free country I find myself residing in!
On a different note, I just want to say to "bornandraised", well said. Instead of wasting energy attacking everyone, we should be choosing our battles and focusing on progression. Whatever we do, big or small, it should always be about growth and improvement.
As I've made it inordinately clear, I only take issue with your capacities, or lackthereof, to discuss this topic because you don't seem to have even the slightest idea what you're talking about.
Since you consider a simple criticism (an attempt to)deny(ing) you your right to free speech then that you've pretty much made my point for me.
Travin... I will clarify and leave it at that...
1. When I said a man could live a "normal" life by not disclosing he is gay, I am not talking about his feelings or the pain it will cause him. I am saying, the obstacles of finding employment, being treated equally with respect and courtesy, and living wherever he chooses are greatly reduced... diminished even. I was speaking on a PURELY physical level. WE ALL KNOW discrimination hurts everyone, but I do not believe that homophobia is the same or even similar to racism or sexism. But it isn't relevant whether or not they are the same. It's all wrong. Having said that, I have a right to my opinion whether you like it or not, so it's something you'll just have to learn to deal with.
2. In relation to #1... And in regards to someone "looking gay"... do I really need to dive into stereotypes...........?
3. I never stated that I am "vaguely familiar" with the gay community. Actually, I have volunteered at many outreach programs that are specifically geared toward educating and protecting the gay youth. And yes... some of my best friends are gay... and some are not.
4. The reason I decided not to go into battle with you is not because I am "uninformed" or do not know what I am talking about. The reason I decided against continuing this ridiculous discussion is because it is clear to me that you are using this forum and topic (and me) to vent your personal issues and frustrations. While I completely understand where you're coming from, I am not the target you believe me to be, and feel you would be far more effective if you directed that anger and frustration to new ideas and education. I turn away from this discussion with you because it is not positive or productive.
You may wish to call me a great many things, but I think it's interesting that you are actually doing the very things you're claiming to speak out against. I do not have anything against you, nor do I believe you to be stupid or ignorant or so-on-and-so-forth. I just do not wish to spend my time on such negative nonsense.
The history of oppression of blacks is very different that that of gays, but that doesn't mean it is any greater or lesser ... just different. While the oppression of blacks comes from "outside" their community (ie. from whites) the oppression of gays comes from "inside" (ie. from our families, our churches, our neighborhood). I will not attempt to quantify which is worse, as its not very productive, but each is violently detrimental to one's life.
Lets not forget, whether we like to think of it this way or not, most of us moved away from our families, left our churches, moved to cities that were accepting so we wouldn't face discrimination. It may not have been an overt idea, but at its root, that is why we are here. it's easy to be gay in San Francisco -- but go back to my home town and you'll still be yelled at on the street, have your house trashed, and have to keep a watchful eye for your safety.
FNREEDIE, I don't think it was ever an issue of greater or lesser. I was simply pointing out that if no one knew "John Doe" was gay, there would be no violence against him, whereas a person of colour or a female does not have that avenue of protection nor can they ever escape or "hide".
I see quite a few of my gay male friends flourish in their careers, and either their sexuality is not an issue or they simply do not discuss it because they know it would be. This doesn't and cannot take away from the underlying issue that all discrimination is equally and painfully wrong, nor am I saying that a gay individual should stay in the closet... quite the contrary. Just saying, different is different, and perhaps more people would understand the issue if it were talked about in a more straight-forward way rather than comparing it to things it's not really related to.
tminus: I agree. But I do get tired of people saying we haven't suffered enough, we are not a real civil rights movement, blah blah blah. Oppression is oppression and it is wrong no matter what the front is.
I may be able to hide my gayness whereas someone who is black cannot hide their blackness. However no one has ever been thrown out of their family for being black.
MLK Jr. did not fight for rights for just black people -- He fought for rights for all people against oppression.
"But I do get tired of people saying we haven't suffered enough, we are not a real civil rights movement, blah blah blah. Oppression is oppression and it is wrong no matter what the front is."
FNREEDIE, apologies, that is not the distinction I was trying to make and I agree with you. I think the problem is many individuals do not understand the gay rights movement as a whole. For those who do, I certainly do feel that there is a recognition that discrimination is discrimination regardless of the type.
You would be surprised to know that, yes, in history many black families were torn apart if certain individuals could "pass" for white and others could not. This is well documented. In history, you also have the issue of many slaves being sold and separated from their families, etc. etc.....
However, I would like to stress that when talking about race, there is more colour in the bay area than "black". I have noticed that this city seems almost obsessed with the "black" race, and it's something I never could quite grasp. Blacks make up a very small percentage of the population in the bay area, and are a very poor representation of what the true black community in the United States looks like. You have a far greater Asian and Latin/Hispanic culture here, and you will find their general views on homosexuality to be intolerant to say the very least. It is a worldwide problem and should not be confined to race. I believe the more people are able to understand the issue on a human level, the better the chances of growth.