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Asm. Tom Ammiano On Glass Breaking BART Cop
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Help Children Have a Merry Xmas While Receiving a Lap Dance
Happening at around 10:30 a.m., this small gathering could get bigger. What today's scene outside city hall about, you ask? Supervisor Tom Ammiano's ID card legislation, which was approved by the Board of Supervisors last week. The municipal identification cards - which would be available to all city residents, illegal immigrant or otherwise - passed in a 10-1 vote and would "make San Francisco the largest city in the country to issue municipal identification."
Mayor Gavin Newsom says he supports the ID legislation, so these residents above are either impatient, suspicious, or both.
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There's a couple dozen people there right now. Lots of media...
I'm sorry...what's the point?
Holy crap people, have a little patience. You can't roll out something like this within a business week. Also, agreed with manys.. what *is* the point?
These people have some gall. They should be rounded up and promptly removed from the country.
The point is to be able to have identification where you cannot otherwise get a California ID. People who tend to fall into this category are homeless people, old people (whose birth certificates are not on record), and undocumented immigrants. I would also get one even though I'm not in the aforementioned categories, because I don't want an ID that is connected through the national database. The REALID Act made it so states had to issue an ID that would be connected to a national database or alternatively issue a national ID. California opted for the former, so that California ID's would just be connected to the system. It is a little freaky if you ask me.
Benefits include being able to open a bank account at participating banks using the ID, and being able to have an ID to use for City Services.
Note that you do have to show another form of ID to get this. So if you have no ID at all, you are still fucked.
Please largo01 they are not undocumented immigrants but illegal aliens. What did they lose their documents when they snuck over our border? End this idiotic scheme of pandering to people who are in our country illegally.
Illegal immigration isn't an issue I concern myself with too much, but I agree -- the term "undocumented immigrant" is beyond annoying.
Illegal aliens are still human beings, and as such we ought to treat them with respect.
Not everyone can enter this country legally, and not many would chose to leave their homes if there was no need. These are people just trying to find a way to improve the lives of themselves and their family, and it's a shame for anyone to look down upon them for such.
I don't have a huge beef with illegal aliens, per se, because a.) I understand how important they are to our economy in the great State of California by roaming to and fro picking the vegetables for substandard wages which translates to cheap produce in the Safeway; and b.) the shitty lives they leave behind in their various countries of origin are in no large part the result of the devastating impacts associated with American and European imperialism. Still, the fact remains that they are here ILLEGALLY, that they BROKE THE LAW to get here. Accordingly, they should drop the entitled attitudes (they're entitled to nothing here save basic protection of law) and behave in a more circumspect manner. The great love and admiration that my fellow "liberals" and "progressives" show for these people is misguided and, frankly, a little racist. Anyone who pleads for further rights for illegal aliens is just bowing down to the patriarchy.
what part of illegal does the stupid folks at city hall not get?
@Glenparker
Don't call them jaywalkers! What a ridiculous term. They are illegal pedestrians and should be banned from the other side of the street.
The fact that people committed a crime to get here doesn't make them invalid as human beings.
I'm not saying we should give them the rights of citizens, but what's wrong with issuing a city ID so they can open a bank account or identify themselves to a police officer during an investigation without revealing their citizenship status? We need people to inform on the much less law-abiding gang members and the banks sure could use the liquidity right now!
@shazwozzle:
I don't see where glenparker called them invalid as human beings. Illegal alien is an actual dictionary term for "a foreigner who has entered or resides in a country unlawfully or without the country's authorization." You can double-speak it all you want, but it is what it is.
(www.dictionary.com)
More guts than a slaughterhouse.
@bluecanary
I'm not a huge fan of "undocumented immigrant" either. In this case I think it's more about what's being done with the words. Look at spysea's above comment:
"what part of illegal does the stupid folks at city hall not get?"
The argument seems to be that these people are "illegal" in their very natures and therefore any action that gives them any recognition is wrong. Here, giving them a functional form of identification seems to me to be in the best interest of society as a whole yet we cannot do that because they are illegal people. I do not understand.
Was this post linked at foxnews.com?
Nobody is say that these people are "illegal in their very nature" we're saying that they're in this country illegally. And to give them any sort of ID or benefits IS wrong. Name one country on this earth that has a functioning government that will turn a blind eye to a person from another country who sneaks across the border then gives them benefits? Again they aren't illegal people but they are in this country illegally. Why is that so difficult to understand? If someone entered your house without your permission would you not say they were there illegally?
Everyone is missing the point here. SF IDs are the first step to secession from the US Government and California. It isn't about illegal Black/Mexican/Italian/Irish/Indian/French/Canadian/Gay/Transgender/Lesbian illegal undocumented aliens in the long run.
Get over the people sneaking across the boarder, more workers are GOOD for us. They aren't "stealin ur bucket".
uhh. I sincerely doubt SF IDs are going to help the bay leave the union. Also.. the bay area is entirely dependant on the rest of California, just as they are on us. There won't be any unilateral action on the part of the bay.
Since i apparently started this frenzy of comments, let me just say that I used the word undocumented purposefully, because that is what the ID is supposed to do; give someone who is undocumented a "document". And that goes for aliens and residents, legal and illegal, alike.
I'm willing to bet none of you people work in the field of immigration law, so let me just make a brief comment on our immigration system. The immigration laws are not criminal laws, they are civil laws. When you get a speeding ticket, you are breaking the law, but it is not criminal. This is the same with immigration laws. I disagree with the use of the term "illegal alien," because if we are going to talk about immigrants being "illegal," then my fellow Californians, we are also all illegal in many ways more than one. Those of you with same-sex marriages. welp, its apparently illegal now. Those of you who smoke marijuana. illegal. those of you who drive over the speed limit. illegal. jay-walk, illegal. There are so many laws on the books, that we are all, in fact, illegal. That is why it is important to make a definite distinction between criminal laws and other laws, and understand how and why they are enforced the way they are.
and to get back to the SF ID program. It is not designed for illegal aliens. It is designed for undocumented people. Believe it or not, a ton of people in this city who do not fall into the category of "illegal alien" are undocumented. Take a look around civic center or the TL sometime and you'll know who I mean.
When you don't let people have access to banks and the police without fear of retaliation, you create black markets for $$ and protection. Guess whose business that feeds? Any time a black market is created, gangs and maffia benefit.
Finally, jumping to the illegal immigration debate. Like it or not. California is built on the hard work of "illegal" aliens. They are as much a part of our society as we are. There are not nearly enough resources to get rid of them, and should we get rid of them, we are going to send ourselves straight into a depression. And I dunno about you guys, but I don't want some Okies coming over to take those jobs. We have enough hicks as it is.
But those Okies ARE Americans, illegal aliens are not. Americans should get those jobs. That whole we are all illegals in this country is just a tired old BS argument. So Canadians are all living in their country illegally? And those of Spanish decent living in Mexico are there illegally too? I'm sure you can come up with a better argument than that but perhaps not. And the SF program IS designed for illegal aliens and we all know it. Calif has a very nice ID that is available if you do not drive so saying citizens cannot get proper ID is more BS. Show me one person in SF who is here legally that cannot somehow get proper ID. Illegal aliens can already talk to the police without fear of arrest because SF is a sanctuary city so that argument is also BS. How can you make an analogy of smoking marijuana or speeding and being in a country illegally? Crazy.
dee tuk ur jerbs!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2fGl9587X8
GlenParker: I don't think you understood my argument. I'm not talking about how we are all invader conquerors of the indigenous populations of North America. We are, but that has no legal consequences in this day and age. I was referring to the fact that immigration laws are not criminal laws. If you want to treat people as "illegals" because they break a non-criminal law, then we are all in fact illegal, because we have all committed crimes. That is not crazy at all. There is a definite legal distinction. You also have to realize that immigration law is one of the most actively changing areas of law. Someone who got in under the Immigration laws of the early 1900s could not get in now, or conversely, CAN get in now. It is an entirely political set of laws that have no basis in "right" or "wrong". So to treat someone as an evil-doer law breaker because they broke a law that is a whimsical non-criminal law, overlooks the fact that we are all law breakers.
"but those Okies ARE Americans" hahah. sadly. If we had the same standards applied to them that we apply to all people wanting to immigrate here, they wouldn't pass muster ever! In fact, there are few who would.
On to the Okies. Damn i hates me teh okies! When I was a wee lad, I used to think America was America and we were all Americans, and hooray America! Then I traveled around America and lived in various locations. I came to the realization that shockingly, America is a fabrication straight outta the fitties. What I thought America was, was actually an extension of Claifornia. But I was wrong. There are definitely distinct and opposite cultures within the United States. I grew up in California, and so perhaps my bias leads me to believe that California is superior to the rest of the country. But if you've lived in the South or the Midwest, or even The East Coast, you'd realize that those people are just as foreign to us as Mexicans and other immigrants. And c'mon. Are we gonna split hairs here? What would you rather have, Taquerias or trailer parks in your neighborhood? And if you'd rather have trailer parks, then I'd like to start using a quote that is so dear to me, which I've picked up from KSFO, "Love it or leave it". This is California, dude. It has always been this way. If you prefer to live in Oklahoma, be my guest.
@GlenParker
a.) What jobs? Picking cabbages for six American dollars an hour? No American apparently wants that job because guess what? The aliens are here doing them for us! Really, do you think these people would come here if they had to fight Americans for jobs? Get real.
b.) The fact that aliens will do these jobs for substandard wages directly translates into lower price for the consumer. Should we eject all the aliens and hand those jobs over to Okies, they'd demand much higher wages, prolly unionization with benefits, etc. the cost of that would in turn be passed on to the consumer and the price of produce would skyrocket.
c.) You completely misunderstood the explanation largo01 offered on the difference between civil and criminal law as applies to the matter of immigration.
d.) If you have no permanent address you cannot obtain ID from the State of California. Go try. Report back what the DMV lady says to you when you tell her you have no place to receive mail, etc. This is a real situation for homeless people in this city.
e.) The last thing this state needs is more humans from Redstatelandia. Okies and their ilk should be banned from the state and if the California Supreme Court says Prop 8 is A-OK, I plan on authoring a proposition that WILL ban Rustics from the state (or, at the very least, deprive them of the right to vote, home school their whelps, learn to read, etc.) Alas, during the Depression, California DID attempt to pass laws banning Okies from the state, but SCOTUS said they were unconstitutional. Stupid SCOTUS.
If we commit crimes like smoking marijuana or speeding and we get CAUGHT there are consequences. Shouldn't the same apply to someone who commit a crime by entering into this country illegally? What about the people who are going through the legal process to live here and watch as these people basically flip them the finger? With illegal immigration there's no telling who you are letting into the country. Murders, good people, drug dealers, auto mechanics; shouldn't we have a process to weed out the bad apples? Oh that's right we already do.
I would be happy to pay the extra cost to pay an American a good wage to pick my fruits and vegetables. These illegals are just being exploited so we can keep more of our money.
No, the last thing this state needs is more illegal aliens. How can you say that you want to ban your fellow Americans from moving here because you disagree with their views? And of course people who disagree with you all live in trailer parks. Sure....
Oh and so the homeless are going to want these ID's to do what with? Open a bank account? Get a discount playing golf? How do the homeless who live in a city other than SF survive without a municipal ID card?
Glenparker:
1. I didn't say there weren't consequences for breaking the law. I said that if we are going to call aliens who enter this country illegally, "illegal aliens," then we should also call each other illegal as well. Illegal smokers, Illegal pedestrians, illegal drivers, etc. There is no rational basis to call them illegal if you are not going to call each other illegal. I also just gave you a rational basis to differentiate what should be called illegal and legal, and that is based on our distinction in the law between criminal and civil crimes.
2. Not all laws are made equal. You have to look at the policy reasons behind each law. Immigration law happens to be one of the most contested areas of law, simply because the laws are made on a mix of rational and irrational politics. There is no moral basis by which you can say "these people should come in, and these people should stay out". Instead, politicians rely on a number of factors that would not seem rational to the average person. For instance, we don't let people with AIDS come to the US, even on vacation. Why? Does that make sense? Especially when the US already has a high rate of AIDS. We also ban Communists from the US. Does that make sense to you? Doesn't the US tolerate political speech and opinion? We aren't in the cold war anymore. Chinese people who want to have more than 1 child can come here and apply for asylum. Why? Because some Senator thought we should encourage "family", so he wrote it into the immigration statute. Does that make sense to you, when there are plenty of immigrants from other countries, including Mexico, who also appreciate "family". Immigration laws get remade about every 10 years. And they may get remade in the next couple of years, at which point you might be looking at amnesty for all "illegals". At that point, will you still call them illegal? Will you say they aren't entitled to be here? If you use the logic you've been running on, which is--the law is the law, then at that point you will have to drop this BS and say fine, they are legal and just as entitled. My point here is that this area of law is always in flux. Even people who try and get here the legal route end up getting fucked because of our irrational immigration laws.
3. You are right on one point. With illegal immigration, we don't know who we are letting in. However, working with immigrants on a daily basis, I will tell you this. There is no other group of people residing in America who want to be completely law abiding. Where you and I commit a petty crime, we get a fine and a slap on the wrist. When an immigrant, legal or illegal, commits the smallest of crimes, it could mean deportation--which in some cases could amount to a death sentence. I think the paranoia about terrorists and criminals coming in through the border is a little reactionary. I know you hear about criminal immigrants in the news frequently, but it is the criminal elements that are imported along with immigrant communities which thrive off of the marginalization that our anti-immigration politics create. If we didn't marginalize whole communities of people based on whether they have papers or not, those criminal elements amongst them would stand NO chance against our law enforcement. That, in fact, is partially what the ID system is designed to do. It gives undocumented people something they can use to go to authorities with.
4. Furthermore, and this is just connecting my previous thoughts together: if there is a long-term illegal problem, the answer is to figure out how to make immigration laws that are suitable to get people here legally, such that they will use our system, and that system won't be used to arbitrarily weed out deserving people. In the short-term, however, we need to make sure that we don't marginalize the already existing illegal population here. ID Cards could help. The Sanctuary City policy also helps--although as you've undoubtedly read, Newsom is getting rid of it, because he thinks he is going to be governor some day. god help us.
5. Homeless People need ID's so they can establish themselves and get a job and get themselves out of being homeless. You have no idea how hard it is to start with nothing. Documents build on documents to get you more documents. You need to start somewhere.
"How do the homeless who live in a city other than SF survive without a muncipial ID Card?" They don't.
"How can you say that you want to ban your fellow Americans from moving here because you disagree with their views? And of course people who disagree with you all live in trailer parks. Sure...."
You've just hit the nail on the head GlenParker, and I'm glad you fell into the trap. This is the same debate that goes on in the immigration arena. How can you say that you want to ban one group of people from immigrating and not another based on their views, or their country of origin, or their skin color, or their financial status. Surely, all Mexicans are garbage! Does this sound familiar to you? Well I say all Okies are garbage, and good riddance!
And before you say the difference is that Okies are Americans and Mexicans are not, let me ask you why I should feel any bond between myself and the Okies. Why? Give me a reason. Ok, they were born in America. big whoop. Lots of people are born here. I really question your love of your "fellow" Americans. Have you been to the South where nooses hang from trees as warnings to African-Americans and non-Whites? Have you lived in the Midwest where everyone is fat and thinks fast food, the bible, and cable TV are what makes their pathetic lives so great. The hate and irrationality in those regions goes beyond comprehension. And I guess as a result, I'm forced to abhore and despise those parts of the country in turn. And yet, I'm told on a daily basis that THAT IS AMERICA. So apparently me being from California means I'm not American. I'm fine with that actually. I'd rather not be connected with the garbage that comprises the rest of the US.
So tell me. Why should I feel a closer bond to an Okie than to a Mexican? At least illegal immigrants come here to work hard and make a living. That's more than I can say about the rest of the country.
I want to ban ALL GROUPS that enter this country illegally. Mexican, Irish, Russian, African, Canadian. It's fine if you feel more affinity with those who enter this country illegally than those who were born here but most Americans would not agree with you. It's immaterial why people come here illegally the fact is that they COME HERE ILLEGALLY.
Everyone in the midwest is fat and have pathetic lives? What do you think people from the midwest say about Californians? I know, their opinions don't count because they are all stupid and as Obama said they only cling to their guns and religion.
the garbage that comprises the rest of America? Sorry you lost me with that one. What's the difference with saying the garbage that comprises California?
you said "Surely, all Mexicans are garbage! Does this sound familiar to you?" Actually it doesn't. Being born in SF I've grown up with and know plenty of Mexicans and would of course not consider them garbage. Perhaps you are just projecting your own feelings?
GlenParker: Again, you've missed the point, and I'm sorry if by making my point, I've misled you to believe I hate everyone who isn't from California. The point is that immigration laws are utterly arbitrary and political. Some Senator happens to like Ireland (hint hint), and so he wrote into the immigration statute that the Irish can come here for longer periods of stay without a visa. Yet there is no such Senator currently for the Mexicans or other nationals. You want to ban all groups that come to the US illegally, but our immigration laws prevent many deserving people from coming to the US legally. Your trust in the law seems a bit misguided, because you assume the laws are equal. They aren't.
It is just as if I were to make a law banning Okies from coming here and at the same time making it OK for New Englanders to come here. Why did I choose to make the law that way? Simple, I hate Okies, but I think New Englanders are decent folk. When the Okies come here illegally, are you going to defend them because you feel they are entitled as Americans or are you going to curse them because they are illegal. I would hope you would opt for the former. And I, as well, argue that if this country wants to make ridiculous immigration laws that are out of touch with reality, rascist, and supremist, then certainly, we shouldn't ostracize those who choose not to follow them.
by rascist, I meant racist.
Largo... thanks for proving the point that support for illegal aliens is NOT about rights - I doubt you care very much about illegals pro or con - but away to express your social superiority over OTHER WHITE PEOPLE.
In as much... minorities to you are just pawns in your game of white status. I bet you're just as surprised as all No on 8 folk are that minorities voted for Prop 8. How dare they not see our social superiority!!!
Even if our immigration laws favor one set of people over another (let's use your two groups, Mexicans and Irish) that doesn't make it right that the Mexicans can overrun our borders just because our laws favor the Irish. Okies and New Englanders are Americans so I don't get your argument. How can they come here illegally? We could have the meanest people from Ireland coming here and the nicest from Mexico and I would oppose them both if they came here illegally. And exactly who are these "deserving people" that our laws are preventing from coming here? Ask any immigrant and they will say they are deserving of coming and living in America. If we make laws, they are OUR laws no matter how misguided you or anyone else may think they are. That doesn't mean foreigners should ignore them. I don't like a bunch of laws in this country (or even city) but that doesn't mean I can just ignore them. If I cannot afford to buy a Corvette but does that means it's ok to steal one?
There are many laws that are political and or arbitrary but that does not mean we should disregard them because we do not believe in them. Yes it's true, all laws aren't applied equally but that does not give one the right to disregard those you do not agree with. If you want to come live in America there is a process that must be followed. By sneaking over the border you're saying "screw America, your laws don't apply to me."
davey k: I think you took my tongue-in-cheek comments a little too literally. I was trying to prove a point about the nature of immigration laws. The fact that they are based on notions of superiority, and that is the reason why I don't condemn illegals for disobeying them.
GlenParker: My point in comparing Okies with Mexicans or Irish, is that while immigration laws regulate people who do not possess American citizenship, the cultural difference between a Californian and an Okie is just as great as a Californian and a Mexican. My point is that American citizenship is a worthless indicator of social unity. If we can exclude Mexicans, then why not Okies. Or contrarywise, let's be a litte more equitable.
By deserving people I mean those who would otherwise get in to the US under the immigration statute if they were to be considered under a similar provision for other nationals.
Furthermore, I disagree. Some laws should be disregarded due to their arbitrariness, and although criminal laws should not, some civil laws are so blatantly arbitrary that they should be ignored. Jaywalking for instance. Any idiot can look out for his own safety. Speeding when there are NO CARS around. Who gives a shit. Black people sitting on the back of the bus. Segregation for instance? What did you think about Martin Luther King jr.? And illegal immigration when the rules are based on arbitrary considerations. I have an idea. Let's create an immigration law that people can respect. In that case, I'll get behind the law. Until then, I won't condemn someone for disobeying them. They are bad laws and should be reformed.