SFist: Bart Extension Expected to Pass

makfan

Sun, 30 Nov 2008 12:39:41 -0800

@hubcap, During rush hour, take the 181 to downtown or the 180 to the Great Mall from Fremont BART. They split the 180 line, which is actually a nice improvement for those going into San Jose from Fremont BART. If Caltrain can electrify, and replace those horrible old gallery cars, it would be much nicer. I know the bicyclists hate the new Bombardier cars because they only hold 16 bikes in the cab car, but as a non-biker I go out of my way to take the newer train sets if I can.

murphstahoe

Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:20:12 -0800

hubcap - the hi-speed rail will probably be ready before the BART extension - or the BART extension will delay the hi-speed rail from completing. That's my point.

hubcap

Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:15:55 -0800

hooray! I dont know why SFers would want to come down here, but I know I'll definitely use BART to hit up oakland and berkeley. I'm _sick_ of driving to fremont on the trail of tears (880). and yes, the baby bullet whatever is nice, but doesn't run often enough. and caltrain is just clunky and annoying. I'd rather go all the way around the east bay to SF than ride that piece of junk! also, the 180 doesn't run during rush hour. how useful! whatever makes it easier to get out of this damn sby until the hi-speed rail arrives!

murphstahoe

Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:59:23 -0800

@peninsulachick - have you ever found the Caltrain Jitney? The Blue Mini-bus that runs from Caltrain to 2nd/Market nonstop for the same price as MUNI? And the guy drives like a madman so he can make it back and forth quickly. A little known SF gem.

peninsulachick

Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:35:00 -0800

murphstahoe, actually, the airport parking isn't (or shouldn't) be contributing to the parking issue. People parking with airport permits are allowed to park in the reserved parking spots, which are not open to people without monthly or airport permits before 10 a.m. The vast majority of those spots are empty at the 8 a.m. commute time. What I am talking about is the non-reserved garage parking spaces, which used to be plentiful and are now quite hard to come by. People with airport parking permits shouldn't be parking in the non-reserved spots because they're much farther from the elevators and stairs. It just doesn't make sense that people would park in the non-reserved spots, much farther from the BART entrance, if they could easily park RIGHT NEXT to the entrance. So I highly doubt the uptick has anything to do with the airport parking. And yes, it would be fantastic if Caltrain extended to the Transbay Terminal. I would switch in a second if it did. It's nice to have an easy ride to the ballpark, but seriously, not having Caltrain serve the Financial District is ridiculous. Getting off at Montgomery Street is hell in the morning; I would be in heaven if I could use Caltrain. KatyG, I'm not really sure which communities BART would serve by heading south - I mean, it could certainly run through Burlingame and Belmont and whatnot, although I'm not sure who would use it. Mainly I'd just like it as a more reliable alternative to Caltrain (especially to Palo Alto) - hell, I'd be happy if BART ran down the Peninsula every 30-45 minutes (instead of the usual 15-20), if it meant not having to wait an hour or more if you miss the Caltrain.

Xenu

Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:46:53 -0800

What they really need to do is rip out Caltrain and replace it with Bart. That way everybody wins (well except for the 2 freight trains they run on that line every year.)

murphstahoe

Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:11:24 -0800

peninsula chick - part of the parking issue at Millbrae is that it now doubles as SFO airport parking, if you are saying there are no spots. I could see someone saying "I have to park farther" - but if there are really no spots then BART needs to reconsider if they want to keep letting long term SFO parkers use that garage. Certainly there has been an uptick - the service is definitely better now that SFO is bypassed - but compared to the projected numbers the ridership is abysmal. And the project was funded based on the projections - this is also true of the San Jose extension. Perhaps what you are asking for is for Caltrain to extend to the Transbay Terminal? That would not be cheap either, but it certainly would get utilized, especially if they managed to have a reasonable link to BART, making an East Bay to Peninsula commute marginally seamless (the current route to Millbrae, while similarly seamless, takes 20-30 minutes more).

KatyG

Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:59:34 -0800

peninsulachick, I agree. I occasionally have to BART in from Colma and have noticed a definite uptick in the number of people already on the train when it gets in, as well as the number of people waiting at Colma. But I have to ask: which peninsula towns could be served by BART other than the ones that Caltrain already runs through? Or put another way, how could we get BART to cross to the west of El Camino? I don’t think it could be done politics-wise *or* engineering-wise.

peninsulachick

Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:47:27 -0800

tedd4u, it'll never happen, because San Mateo County already hates BART thanks to the high cost of the SFO extension. Personally, though, I'd love to see BART as an alternative to Caltrain that would serve neighborhoods that Caltrain doesn't. (I'd also love to see a second Transbay Tube that goes from Millbrae to Hayward - ah, dreams.) murphstahoe, I don't find that Caltrain works as commuter rail either, at least not if you're commuting to a part of S.F. that isn't Potrero Hill or the ballpark. My commute is already long and stressful enough without dealing with Muni. I also take issue with your characterization of the SFO extension as a "ghost town" - I commute from Millbrae to the Financial District, and sure, I used to be able to park easily and the trains were practically empty, but there's been a HUGE uptick in riders this year that no one has seemed to notice. There are few to no non-reserved garage spots past 8 a.m., and at least three of the cars are always nearly full to capacity (seatwise) on at least the 7:45 and 8 a.m. trains. There's no seating past South City or, at the latest, Colma, when it used to be fairly easy to get a seat at Daly City. Malign the extension if you must, but I'd be very surprised if the numbers don't show that ridership is definitely up - even after the drop in gas prices. As for the San Jose extension, sure, why not - I'll never take it, mostly because going from Millbrae to Santa Clara (or even Milpitas) on BART would be completely insane. I'd be interested in seeing ridership projections on that line - I used to commute from San Jose to the city and would drive along 680 to get to Fremont BART, and there seems to be a LOT of empty space out there. Maybe the cities are hidden by the hills...

oskarv

Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:58:24 -0800

murphstahoe: well i live in the Tenderloin about 2 blocks from the Civic Center station. I have found that walking over to Van Ness to catch the 47 or walking down to Civic Center BART takes ~ the same amount of time. the one thing i do like about CalTrain is that they offer monthly passes. BART should REALLY consider doing this.

murphstahoe

Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:55:35 -0800

largo - the Capitol Corridor already services San Jose via rail, stopping in Jack London Sq, connecting to BART at the Oakland Coloseum, with parallel stops to BART and ending in downtown San Jose. It also has huge problems which are easy to document. 1) The tickets are expensive 2) Frequency 3) Reliability All three of these could be fixed with far less money than the BART extension, along an already existing rail right of way, with the stop at GAC that is far more valuable from a commuter rail standpoint than Capitol/Berryessa/Alum Rock will be. Additionally, upgrading those rails will provide a huge boost for ACE Rail, improving existing service for Livermore, Tracy, and Stockton, which are also part of the Bay Area and not currently served by BART.

murphstahoe

Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:49:10 -0800

It is well understood that Caltrain functions really well as commuter rail, and not so great as general transit, because off peak and especially on weekends the service is infrequent. However, there is nothing inherent to Caltrain preventing more frequent service or bullets off peak or on the weekends. The only thing preventing it is lack of money. I wish it ran every 10 minutes all day long with every other train being a limited/bullet. But we are going to plow the money into the BART extension. My point is - if we invested the same amount of money into Caltrain and the Corridor, they would kick ass and take names. The BART extension is going to be very "meh". I understand the problem with getting to 4th/King - trust me, dealing with MUNI from the Castro then switching to the N, that's why I bike to Caltrain (and can take my bike on during Rush Hour). However, if you are coming from Glen Park, you can take BART to Millbrae in 23 minutes, and you lop off the first 17 minutes of a Caltrain run (issues with transfers understood). (From Civic Center I would walk to Harrison and take the 47 to Caltrain btw).

tedd4u

Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:37:09 -0800

Any thoughts on extending BART from Millbrae to San Jose/ SCA and closing the loop? Could we kill off caltrain then? I guess it has all those local Peninsula stops that are probably useful to someone. Still the grade crossings are pretty scary.

oskarv

Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:32:56 -0800

largo brings up another good point. caltrain doesn't run often enough or late enough.

oskarv

Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:26:27 -0800

murphstahoe: Caltrain blows. Baby Bullet isn't even relevant, because unless you're taking Caltrain during the rush hour, it takes a good hour and a half to get to San Jose Diridon from 4th and King. The amount of stops in the Peninsula makes me want to pull my hair out when I'm on Caltrain. Also, getting to 4th and King is often a pain. Even if you're along the market metro muni lines, the N is painfully slow once it's above ground on Embarcadero. It literally adds 20 minutes to the trip if you're coming from Civic Center (my BART stop). For people coming from Ingleside, Glen Park, or even the Mission, getting to 4th and King is an even bigger pain in the arse. As long as Caltrain only has stops on the eastern fringes of the city, BART will be way more convenient. Caltrain sucks so much that I have found taking BART to Fremont and then hopping onto the #180 is usually faster to get to the South Bay. At least coming from Civic Center. Also: Why would I take Caltrain to Diridon and then the #180 to get to The Great Mall? It makes much more sense to go down the East Bay (using BART) and then catch the #180 from Fremont. Not only is it much faster that way, it is also a couple dollars cheaper.

largo01

Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:18:29 -0800

Murphstahoe: you seem to be looking at this only from the perspective of a San Francisco resident. The rest of the Bay Area would also like to be able to get to San José as well, and without having to BART into the city, walk a couple blocks, and transfer to CalTrain, which has terrible hours anyways.

dantsea

Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:02:58 -0800

Fortunately, it's going to be built* and we can all see for ourselves how horrible it will be. Perhaps it will rejuvenate some of the old hands in ba.transportation to relive the halcyon days of the SFO extension drama, and crow about how some random lawsuit will get construction halted, or how low ridership means the line will be shuttered within months after it opens.

murphstahoe

Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:53:40 -0800

oops, sorry Akit. I just interviewed a guy named "Ankit" and slipped up. I am so ashamed. Put me in your complaint department.

murphstahoe

Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:52:28 -0800

oh, and Ankit. As you can see, the BART station in Santa Clara is at (drumroll please) Santa Clara Caltrain. The 60 runs from there to Great America, but you would be better served taking the 55 from Sunnyvale. This is also substantially faster than the light rail. The light rail is more frequent but the 55 is faster and has less stops, because VTA screwed up the light rail with the whole loop out to Borregas. Similarly oscarv should be taking Caltrain to Diridon then switching to the 180, not the light rail. Don't blame Caltrain for how crappy that light rail is. Blame VTA. VTA, by the way, will be riding shotgun on the BART extension :(

murphstahoe

Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:39:00 -0800

This is bad news on so many levels. Currently Caltrain to SJ - 1 hour on a baby bullet. With electrification (far cheaper than the BART extension and cheaper to run) 50 minutes, including full grade separation to reduce those pesky fatalities. Powell to Fremont - 45 minutes. http://www.ebbc2.ebbc.org/rail/bartmap.JPG It will be a minumum of 30 minutes additional to get to downtown. At best it will be a wash vs taking BART from Powell to Millbrae and switching to Caltrain. There will be no Milpitas stop near the Great Mall as you can see. BART is not a miracle ride - you have to build it somewhere and the right of way is not near the Mall. The stops are also not near JOBS. As such it will not relieve traffic on 880 - for commuters this will NOT be an option, they won't take it, especially when unlike people commuting to SF, there is plenty of parking at their workplaces. An option already exists and is used - ACE and Capitol Corridor which stop (drumroll please) AT GREAT AMERICA. The Corridor is slow and unreliable - but for the money we will spend on BART it could be made very reliable and have plenty of money left over - to run a dumbarton rail spur from Redwood City Caltrain to Union City BART - which would also take people from their home to their JOBS. It's not worth 12 Billion dollars to get Ankit to the Great Mall faster. If this line was going to get use, I'd be all for it. But it will be a ghost town, just like the SFO extension. Amusingly the SFO ridership is up - of course this is in large part because you can now drive from Walnut Creek to Millbrae/San Bruno BART, park for $6 a day, and take the BART one stop to the airport. Brilliant! A multi billion dollar people mover from airport parking!

missiondweller

Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:28:24 -0800

Good for San Jose. Its time they took another step to becoming a "big city" as opposed to a bedroom community.

oskarv

Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:21:28 -0800

Akrit: if it stops in Milpitas, as it says it will, the stop will almost certainly be The Great Mall. For Milpitas, The Great Mall also doubles as their transit hub. Santa Clara County has a lightrail system with stops at the Great Mall and also in at the San Jose Diridon transit hub (which is probably where BART will be extended to). The lightrail takes you to Great America (mind you, the lightrail is really slow and annoying). In the mean time: it makes more sense to take BART to Fremont and then take the #180 bus to The Great Mall rather than taking Caltrain and then the light rail. For some reason I am obsessed with public transit.

softunderbelly

Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:02:06 -0800

thank god! this needed to happen 30 years ago

Akit

Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:34:49 -0800

I hope it will stop at the Great Mall in Milpitas. I used to haul myself on Caltrain, and transfer for a long ride on the light rail at Mountain View. As for Santa Clara... how far will it be from Great America? Or will VTA offer a shuttle?

KatyG

Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:20:46 -0800

If BART can give me a $7.75 ride down to San Jose from the Embarcadero station, fine. Otherwise I'm sticking w/ Caltrain.

oskarv

Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:17:20 -0800

This is great. I hate having to go all the way over to 4th and King to catch Caltrain if I want to go to the South Bay.