SFist: Save Same-Sex Marriage: Nationwide Prop. 8 Protest This Saturday, 11/15

manys

Fri, 14 Nov 2008 12:43:17 -0800

we need more protests in this society; more citizen participation If these two things were the same, Frank Chu would have been happily proving his cases in front of a judge for the past 10 years. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but gluing Legos on your bike no longer qualifies as changing the world. And hubcap, you do know where that "Silent Majority" junk comes from, don't you? I agree that more people need to speak up, but it's ironic that you are so out-of-hand rejecting the words of those who are trying to support your cause by suggesting alternate strategies. Perhaps you're also a fan of that other chestnut, "You're either with us, or agin' us." At the end of the day, yes I would like to be able to be lazy and know that the Sisters Of Perpetual Indulgence are leading a successful charge against Prop 8, but I think there should be a more sophisticated plan than, "protests and Dennis Herrera." Namely, the people who say that signs and shouting will make a difference are advocating the same strategy that failed in the runup to the election. Look back two weeks, figure out who fucked it up, then do something brave: don't listen to them anymore. By rejecting any non-protest ideas about this you are closing ranks and reducing the likelihood that anybody outside of the Gay community will give a shit about this in the future. It's time to grow up, boys, you're not the only people who don't like bigotry. Sorry to be patrician about it but people rarely do good things for other people just to shut them up. P.S. It's funny that the example Oskarv gives of "direct participation and not letting the lawyers take care of everything" is to name a lawyer.

The Angry Young Man

Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:46:41 -0800

Daithi, what a coinkydink. I too have a JD, though only two BA's and no PhD, alas. Plus, I live in the Haight, not the Tenderloin. The Haight is over the hill from the Castro. I thought I should tell you that seeing as it's outside the Castro and therefore you may not know where it's actually located.

daithi

Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:09:18 -0800

taym, you have a very high opinion of yourself, all I have is a JD a PHD, and not enough time on my hands to put as much thought and care into each and every post that I put here, now go back to jerking off and smoking pot in your studio in the tenderloin with the knowledge that you are way smarter than the rest of us.

hubcap

Fri, 14 Nov 2008 00:47:20 -0800

it's not a minority. for every protestor there are countless people who agree but are simply choosing to do something else with the little free time we have in the bay area. we need more protests in this society; more citizen participation and speaking up. city hall in san jose saturday at 10:30!

The Angry Young Man

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:58:50 -0800

Christ, what a simpleton. Daithi, next time prove to us you're capable of reading comprehension by actually reviewing the entire thread. That way, you see, you won't have to ask silly questions. Thanks.

daithi

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 19:00:38 -0800

TAYM, it is so easy to tear down others efforts. I look forward to hearing tales of your adventures in bakersfield/fresno or wherever it is you are going. You are going there............ aren't you?

The Angry Young Man

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:41:30 -0800

"In a truly postmodern turn, the images of counterculture membership seem to have entirely supplanted countering the culture." Bingo! Baudrillard celebrates from the great beyond...

The Angry Young Man

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:35:42 -0800

Oskarv: Touche. You've pointed out a flaw in my argument and I will have to reconsider my thoughts on this. Too bad you have to undermine your position by being such a dick about it. Alphabetashopperfrom1987: I was once pepper sprayed in Portland during an anti-war protest so your assumption that PDX is somehow tamer than the over glorified gated community for the wealthy and hip we refer to as San Francisco is kinda retarded. I wish people would live in the here and now instead of their lame assed 1960's nostalgia trips. Imagine how much more effective the Code Pink hags would be if they weren't constantly rehashing Abbie Hoffman's material in such a tired way. All the same, thanks for sharing.

manys

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:45:32 -0800

Naw, I don't think protests are a natural response nor are they needed for anger relief, it just seems that way because of the hippies and San Francisco. Maybe the tide has turned from the old days of "If you're not angry, you're not paying attention," to, "If you're not angry, you probably just got back from waving signs around and yelling with a bunch of your friends." In a truly postmodern turn, the images of counterculture membership seem to have entirely supplanted countering the culture. Protests themselves are a much weaker form of social action than (for instance) one which has been proven to work: the general strike.

oskarv

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:33:03 -0800

manys: directly involved, ie, Dennis Herrera

alphabetagaga87

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:24:20 -0800

Are you guys actually surprised by the protests? People get fucked. They protest. That's what just what happens. The protest itself is the direct result. If you were at the march you might understand that people need that kind of outlet for their anger.

alphabetagaga87

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:19:09 -0800

Protests in Modesto and Fresno? That wouldn't cause any riots... Very smart Angry Man. San Francisco is a great place for protests. It has been for many years. Get with the program, or just move to Portland already.

manys

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:19:03 -0800

many congresspersons were attorneys before they became politicians and may be able to help help in other ways. So the plain English of this reads to me like, "Hey Congressperson, how can you help us?" To which their answer just may be "I can't." What then? I'd think whatever effect contacting Congress can have on the issue should be communicated to those on the ground so that, you know, they know they (and you) aren't wasting their time. "Because of 8, and the Mormons, and no war for oil, and...Free Mumia!!!" isn't really a goal I can get behind. people who don't have the resources and expertise to be involved more directly don't want to sit back, relax, and let the lawyers take care of it. If all you're doing is "art" and walking around with signs hoping a news camera shows up, that's pretty much the same as letting the lawyers take care of it. Seriously, what effect does "directly involved" have? In fact, what is the meaning of the word, "involved" here? Does complaining about MUNI mean you're "directly involved" in improving city transit? Depends on who's listening ("everybody" doesn't count here). Here's another question: what good does it do for people without resources and expertise to be involved at this stage at all? Isn't that more appropriate for, like, three months ago? You can't just use the same strategy for every problem that comes along, especially in using the same strategy "after" that you would (should...could...) have used "before." It's so weird to see people think something like this is absolutely necessary and effective without being able to articulate just what it is that is going to result from it. That's what I mean by "feel good." It's like a form of political hedonism. "I just feel like I should do something." Sorry if this has just turned into a "beat up on oskarv" thread, but these things need to be said (as much as TAYM might be saying them better).

oskarv

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:12:01 -0800

taym: in the same comment you say that it's important to go to the places where the hate exists and then you also turn around and ask me to consider what impact this is going to have "on those folks on the fence or the other side." maybe next time you should focus more on the consistency of your arguments than the cute lettering and numbering system.

The Angry Young Man

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:52:37 -0800

Oskarv - A.) This is not a Federal issue. Accordingly Congress has no real business here. By all means, write to your state legislators but don't expect that to have much impact. Our legislators representing SF are already all on our side. The fact remains that we have like three options in front of us - 1.) Wait for the state Supreme Court to decide what's what. Want to help out? Go file an amicus brief on behalf of the groups seeking relief. 2.) Write your legislators and encourage them to take steps to revise the constitution back to the way it was should the Supreme Court decide that everything is kosher. 3.) Author an initiative to reverse Prop 8 and start collecting signatures to get it onto the 2010 ballot. Then, learn some lessons here and don't make the same mistakes we made here persuading people we deserve equal rights. Like I said, marching around in the streets demanding DC Statehood or that Mumia be freed on his own recognizance ain't gonna do much more than inspire people who should have been active to become and remain active, but then what impact is it going to have on those folks on the fence or on the other side? Consider that. B.) I consider myself to be fairly well educated when it comes to art but I can't think of single significant piece that was inspired by the civil rights movement of the 1960's. Maybe this is because the civil rights movement was mostly a 1950's thing and was pretty much done by the time Johnson took office. On the contrary, we remember so much about the various protest movements of that era because the insufferable Boomers never shut up about them and have revisited them incessantly ever since. In fact, they've revisited them so much they've reduced the entire act of public protest to mere cliche. C.) People want to be active? Good. Very good. However, clogging the streets of San Francisco in some nostalgia trip inspired protest march is not an effective means of being active. It's frustrating. People need to head out to the Central Valley and scare the Okies. Seriously. Instead of protesting here, we need to go to Fresno. After all, during the Civil Rights Movement folks didn't protest in the Woolworth lunch counters of Harlem in an attempt to do away with segregation. That would have been pointless. No, they went down South, where the hate was, and stared it down directly. We need to take heed, do the exact same thing. Otherwise, we're just engaging in so much self indulgence.

Matt415

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:50:42 -0800

I'll be there, bright and early and hungover and fabulous on Saturday morning. Can we start posting picket sign suggestions? I need something clever for while I'm husband hunting.

oskarv

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:21:42 -0800

manys: i know there's not much congress can do, but many congresspersons were attorneys before they became politicians and may be able to help help in other ways. half of the reason we know and remember so much about the civil rights movement in the 60s is because of the art the flourished because of it. people who don't have the resources and expertise to be involved more directly don't want to sit back, relax, and let the lawyers take care of it. they want to do something too.

manys

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:11:17 -0800

What exactly can a Congressperson do about this? That is, why write them a letter (aside from expressing an opinion)? AFAIK, there is no proposed legislative solution to this issue. Creating art about the movement? Has that ever been anything but a feel-good act? Is it more effective when the message on my car is glued on with fluorescent fur instead of leopard? Boycotts I get. SF is the center of gayness in the united states. it only makes sense that we would make our anger known and heard You know what makes more sense to me? That in the center of gayness gay interests are more plugged into the political process and not having to protest in the streets to nil effect. The irony of direct democracy is that the ease of involvement is indirectly related to its effectiveness. This goes for both protests and initiatives/petitions. And y'know, just because I have a feeling my motives will be questioned, I'm not against protest when there is a goal to it.

oskarv

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:57:29 -0800

"protests have always been about inspiring people to become more politically active....?" yes.

The Angry Young Man

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:50:57 -0800

Protests have always been about inspiring people to become politically active and to make art? That's an interesting perspective. I always thought protests were about expressing minority dissatisfaction with dominant paradigms when all other avenues have proven ineffective. I mean, I've been active in any number of protests dating back to my years as a popular yet hip teen leader during the Ray Gun Era and I was already doing all that stuff BEFORE I went wild in the streets. I guess I must have put my cart before my horse. Regardless, if preaching to the choir by taking to the streets and annoying our automobile bound allies will inspire people to become more politically engaged, then go for it. I'm not so sure I'm as excited about the art part though...

oskarv

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:30:08 -0800

taym: listen, the protest on friday inspired a lot of people that attended, who were apathetic before, to become more involved! they were inspired to write letters to their congress persons, to boycott homphobic organizations, to create art about the movement, etc. i know, because these people have also emailed me telling me how the protest incited in them an urge to be a part of the movement! that's what the protests are about, and that's what protests have ALWAYS been about.

The Angry Young Man

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:17:14 -0800

Well, if you feel it's a productive use of your time, Oskarv, have at it. Personally, I think that beyond the catharsis of being both angry and fabulous in the streets, it'll have a whole lolla no impact on anyone at all. Sorry. I can't imagine why that's so hard to understand.

oskarv

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:50:01 -0800

taym: ohhh boyy. i can't even tell you how many emails i got like yours last week. "why are you protesting here?! wahhh wahhh wahh!! [insert midly humorous comment here] please advise." for fucks sake, why not? SF is the center of gayness in the united states. it only makes sense that we would make our anger known and heard! we're not going to rent charter buses to Fresno. the gays are HERE, so the anger and protests are here. i can't imagine why that's so hard to understand.

urbanic

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:47:15 -0800

"Why isn't this massive protest scheduled for..." Fairfield: Fairfield City Hall: 1000 Webster St, Fairfield CA http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=34611228099 Fresno: Fresno City Hall: 2600 Fresno St., Fresno CA (near Amtrak station) http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=33713243669 Bake-o: Bakersfield City Hall: 1600 Truxtun Ave., Bakersfield CA http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=48621856135 Of course, these won't be as big as the one in San Francisco, but they're happening in almost every major city in the state, and around the nation. http://jointheimpact.wetpaint.com/page/California

The Angry Young Man

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:15:29 -0800

Mumia is SO 1990's. Beyond blowing off steam and I'm not sure what the point of this protest is. The issue now rests in the hands of the state Supreme Court and in no way are the justices going to be swayed by hysterical gays running amock in the streets. I suppose this is a good way of showing the straight folks out there how passionate we are about equality so maybe they'll change their minds the next time this issue pops up, but is that the point? If so, why here in SF? Why isn't this massive protest scheduled for Fairfield or Fresno or Bakersfield. Do we need some good old fashioned Queer Nation style activism now? Please advise.

Brock Keeling

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:02:40 -0800

no if we're on our game it won't.

manys

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:59:47 -0800

I hate to be a wet blanket but this has "FREE MUMIA" written all over it. Is Gay Marriage going to be the serial activist's cause of choice going forward? Will it be in their interest to make the issue unpassable?