SFist: Who Can We Blame for Prop. 8's Passing?

joshb

Fri, 21 Nov 2008 16:27:53 -0800

"Gay marriage is defined as a union between one woman and one man" That sounds hella gay

Brock Keeling

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:02:17 -0800

that's interesting, brandizzle, because you're on almost all accounts. but thanks for trying.

brandizzle

Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:59:43 -0800

Why can't you guys just let it be already. You only have yourselves to blame for Proposition 8 failing. Gay marriage is defined as a union between one woman and one man. A civil union is defined as a union between two same sex couples. Marriage for gays is unconstitutional, and should never be allowed, ever!!! So get over it, and go get your civil union. You still have all of the benifits of a marriage, and can still call yourself husband and husband, or wife and wife. So quit pushing for something that will never happen. Why do you people have to push your homosexuality on the rest of us. You don't see me trying to push my heterosexuality on you. SO STOP IT ALREADY AND GET ON WITH YOUR LIVES!!!! YES ON PROP 8!!!! GAY MARRIAGE IS NOT A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT!!!

Darth_Elevator

Sun, 09 Nov 2008 16:20:38 -0800

Lets see....I don't remember all the outrage when gay marriage was banned by over 66% of the California voters then OVERTURNED by 1 judge because it was "unconstitutional". I have NEVER seen anywhere in the state constitution that marriage is a "fundamental right". I don't see anywhere in the US constitution that marriage is a fundamental right. The will of the California people has been spoken...TWICE now...I'm just glad that the words of that pompous ass Gavin Newsome have been reversed. "It ISN'T wide open now" "Whether you like it or not it ISN'T going to happen" Your feeble attempts to usurp the will of the people has been defeated...AGAIN! If you don't like it, get out of California and move to a state where the people don't have a problem with gay marriage...For me it's nothing religious at all...Homosexuality is NOT normal. It is ABNORMAL...If we have to accept you for your sexual preferences then why don't we have to accept pedophiles? They were BORN that way weren't they?

atthebeach

Sat, 08 Nov 2008 19:51:36 -0800

@RinconHillSF: You are dodging the question. Why just Utah? Believe it or not, not all Utah citizens are Mormons. Did anyone in Utah vote in the California election? (Busloads of Californians went to Nevada to proseletize in the election. How is that different?) Why not boycott every state from which a contribution flowed to Yes on 8? I heard plenty of Californians (including religious groups) advocating very vigorously for prop 8. How are you going to avoid giving "another ... dime " to that 53% of California voters who voted yes? Are you going to stop paying state taxes? Enquire of shop owners how they voted? Boycott the DMV? Not pay your parking tickets?

RinconHillSF

Sat, 08 Nov 2008 19:28:30 -0800

Brock, I'm sorry, but I really don't see a loss of income equating to a loss of fundamental rights.

RinconHillSF

Sat, 08 Nov 2008 19:21:27 -0800

47% of California voters cast a ballot to indicate their support of leaving the California Constitution alone. While the leaders of the Mormon Church were hardly the only religious group telling their members to provide money and volunteer hours to write discrimination into California's Constitution, they were by far the most prominent and determined to pass Prop H8. Propositions win or lose based on the money raised and the field campaign. They shot at California's Constitution .... while I'm not about to attack others' freedoms and rights, I will make a personal choice to not give them another Goddamn dime.

atthebeach

Sat, 08 Nov 2008 18:15:59 -0800

@RinconHillSF: I'm confused. Shouldn't you be advocating a boycott of California? After all, it's the state whose voters passed the ballot measure.

Brock Keeling

Sat, 08 Nov 2008 16:05:02 -0800

Boycotting Utah won't help. It's just hurtful and counterproductive.

RinconHillSF

Sat, 08 Nov 2008 14:53:56 -0800

Boycott Utah

Brock Keeling

Sat, 08 Nov 2008 12:10:57 -0800

your lack of clarity is refreshing, mushmouth.

mushmouth

Sat, 08 Nov 2008 12:07:53 -0800

you wonder why your issues get ignored. As sfist is constantly ridiculing politicos who actually care about them.

dannyboy763

Sat, 08 Nov 2008 11:41:35 -0800

Newsom's smugness, political recklessness, self-promotion and a poorly run campaign !!

Brock Keeling

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 23:04:39 -0800

oh.

mushmouth

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 23:02:45 -0800

Brock, how is that crap? Obama, sold you out, he was doing it all along(Donnie McLurkin, etc), and absolutely the worst of all, you all let him without making him pay any political price. You may have even campaigned for him. All I know is the candidates that I voted for in the Primaries and the general did not find their voices in a pro prop 8 robo-call.

zippy_monster

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 21:45:37 -0800

Somehow Biden is a staunch supporter of queer rights because he supports a repeal of DOMA after voting for it? Hell, you could say the same thing about Barr. After drafting DOMA, he apologized for the banning gay marriage. Whee. Marriage was not a key issue for Obama or Biden. If it was for you, you should have found another candidate. That's why primaries and third parties are around: to bring attention to otherwise ignored issues.

Brock Keeling

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 21:17:14 -0800

yeah. even you know that's crap, zippy monster. come on.

zippy_monster

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 21:15:59 -0800

So let me get this straight. There were at least two pro-same sex marriage presidential candidates out there. You all went gaga over Obama, who was decidedly not prop-same sex marriage. Obama picks Biden, a conservative, Catholic, anti-same sex marriage type. Even more people went gaga over Obama. If same sex marriage was so important, perhaps you guys should have put a more decidedly pro-same sex marriage candidate in the spotlight. If same sex marriage was so important, perhaps you all should have pushed for a less evil, less conservative running mate than Biden.

Brock Keeling

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 20:57:19 -0800

hate does have quite the ripple effect. alas.

atthebeach

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 17:52:21 -0800

Those who believe that LDS is the villain will be heartened to read this article: "Utah Faces Boycott after Mormon Work for Prop 8" http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2008Nov07/0,4670,MormonBacklashBoycott,00.html Those of us who believe that NO group should be singled out for persecution are disheartened.

manys

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 17:33:58 -0800

redbearded: Thank you so much for reminding us how little and petty we all are for being enraged that people's civil rights were just taken away from them. The time for that was...before last Tuesday. Now we have to be grownups about it. Think that'll be a problem?

markorkram

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 17:01:22 -0800

As much as I would like to believe otherwise, it's not Gavin's fault, it's the NOon8 campaign's fault. They let YESon8 define the issue and run with it from the very beginning on all media fronts. It was too little too late for NOon8. In on of Willie's latest columns he said that "[NOon8 ran]a bad campaign that way underestimated the opposition to gay marriage and didn't get its act together until the last couple of weeks". Proposition politics is about striking fast and often with the right message. NOon8 had the moral high ground, they just ran a slow to act, poor campaign and they let Feinstein and big Bill C. get egg on their face.

redbearded

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 16:42:53 -0800

Travin, That's an awfully high horse you're sitting up on there. Don't confuse hate and anger.

megang

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 16:25:00 -0800

I officially love travin!

travin

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 16:17:48 -0800

Yep. I thinking right now being an aggressive hate group ourselves isn't the wisest tactic. Confrontational, fine. Politically (pro/ag)gressive, fine. But hate mongering and scapegoating in reaction to hate mongering and scapegoating? Wtf?!? Was the republican brainwashing machine been really *that* affective? Cheney/Rove/Rummy will be so proud their baby has learned to walk.

Brock Keeling

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 15:58:50 -0800

again, i can't imagine going after an entire religious group will be a successful move. the people who funded prop 8 were more than just mormons. sure, there were plenty, but there were lots of other groups, too. also, catholics have funded way worse stuff than prop 8. so has darth vader. and the wicked witch of the west. see where i'm going with this? anyway, it's just a slippery slope we're ice skating on here with trying to bring down the LDS church. which isn't possible.

travin

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 15:46:27 -0800

@brock, perzactly! Hmmmm, let's see....the people that are to blame are bigoted and hateful so our best strategy is to be bigoted and hateful right back. That'll learn 'em and certainly utilize precious energies to move our agenda forward. Surely everyone can see that we're in the right and they'll join us in hating the 'others' too because we're righteous. [/sarcasm=Off]

travin

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 15:40:51 -0800

redbearded, clearly you're not. Moving along, nothing to see.

Brock Keeling

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 15:35:59 -0800

great point, travin. all of this prop. 8 stuff could easily lead into scarier, more bigoted territory if we let it get too far

redbearded

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 15:27:48 -0800

Yes Travin, This is EXACTLY like that time in the third grade.... Thank you so much for reminding us how little and petty we all are for being enraged that people's civil rights were just taken away from them. What WERE we thinking!

largo01

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 15:05:33 -0800

How about blaming stupid people. The idiocy of voters never fails. That is what I blame. Still, those idiots could have been convinced otherwise.

RinconHillSF

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 14:36:18 -0800

Propositions tend to win based on which side has the most money and/or the most feet on the ground (field campaign) to support their side of the proposition fight. I believe the protests at the Mormon churches are right on target in this instance - somewhere between 40% and upwards of 70% of the funds for Yes on Prop 8 have been traced to LDS members. What rights do you think they'll want to strip away from LGBT folks next? Domestic partner insurance for state jobs? That's what happened in Michigan.

tabby

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 14:36:13 -0800

Great reply, Travin. There's been a LOT of hate directed towards Mormons and other groups who backed 8 -- and all it has done is empower them to point out "unfair" treatment against them. This Mormon guy I went to high school with keeps posting ridiculous notes on Facebook talking about how people wanna burn churches and protest Mormons. That just makes us No people look bad. Don't give anyone the power to make you an example of hatred when that's the thing we're trying to combat..

Belgand

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 14:30:17 -0800

I blame the fact that it only requires a simple majority to amend the state constitution. It should really be a 3/4 super-majority. This passed for exactly the same reasons that the previous measure passed. Expecting that times had changed in so short period of time is the real problem. Sadly, because the constitution is so easy to amend the judicial branch lost their ability to make a ruling that a referendum was unconstitutional and make it actually stick. Yes, we can blame specific groups of bigots, but we need to look at how the flawed system allowed this to happen as well.

antfaber

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 13:51:47 -0800

I blame the guys who feared the demise of lesbian porn if gay marriage is allowed

the default attorney

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 13:28:48 -0800

I blame both campaigns. The "Yes" campaign used fear tactics that only no reasonable person could say were based in fact. They turned it into an issue of turning your kids gay. IMHO, the "No" campaign used the wrong angle. "Unfair and Wrong" makes sense to us who already oppose it, but for those on the fence, it begged the question and lacked the firepower of their ads about turning little sally into a lesbo. I think they should have made "prejudice is un-Californian" as their slogan and focused on the fact that this writes discrimination into our state constitution.

icbalaam

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 13:14:01 -0800

Thank you Travin, I couldn't agree with you more!

travin

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 13:07:38 -0800

Stop the blame game. It might make you feel better, but it doesn't make you feel better. It's just an immature reaction to feeling powerless. Constructing an enemy is a distraction, it's procrastination, it's lazy, it's delegating responsibility and it's a waste of time. Remember when you were young and your parents, boss, teacher told you when you got in trouble and you protested "But how come so and so gets to do it?" and they told you to stop paying attention to what other people were doing, pay attention to what you're doing? This, right here, right now, is why. Fix it or stand aside so people that are serious about making some change happen can get shit done without having to ALSO deal with your whining.

fizzandpop

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 12:36:28 -0800

Here's my take. Back last year Nancy Pelosi was running a huge drive to get legal aliens transmogrophied into actual citizens and therefore voters. I was one of those peeps (my application was subsequently denied, but that's another story). Thousands turned up and I have to say, the majority were older "family types". Which is fine for Nancy, as they are also Democratic voters, but not so great for the gay. So the upshot is, blame Nancy.

sfrealist

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 12:12:22 -0800

With all the absentee votes, they say SF participation will be 80%. I blame whoever ran the campaign, especially in LA. Not just LA gays, but LA everyone. This affects us all :(

atthebeach

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 12:01:07 -0800

SFX (post #6) has it exactly right by saying: "I'm not sure blaming it on 'hate' is necessarily the most productive thing to do, unless the endgame here is to create an easily recognizable 'enemy' and not to move forward and figure out ways to undo this." Mormons are an easy target, and apparently they spent a lot of money on this issue. But other religious groups were supporting Prop 8, too. Saying that "Mormons," "blacks," "Hispanics," or whomever should be blamed for the loss, is as stupid as any other racial, ethnic, or religious slur. Blame isn't the least bit productive. Moving forward is. BTW - consider this: http://www.nwcn.com/statenews/oregon/stories/NW_110708ORN_transgender_mayor_LJ.18c8c65c8.html

makfan

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:53:46 -0800

Unfortunately, it's still OK to hate on the gays. 232 years and we're still having trouble with that word "equal".

mushmouth

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:53:11 -0800

The 7 out of 10 number being bandied about is really from a small sample of something on the order of 120 black californias from the AP's nation wide exit poll and should be taken with a grain of salt. That said, the state (or county) does publish results by precinct so it's pretty easy to figure out who did what where.

huffybike

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:49:28 -0800

Too few people listened to Ellen!

Elizabeth

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:41:14 -0800

This guy did the math and concluded that Prop 8 would have failed without the increased African American vote. http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2008/11/prop-8-and-the.html

RinconHillSF

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:39:22 -0800

I blame the LDS Church leaders (not so much the members who probably have to comply or get their legs broken or something). I blame the Catholic church leaders. I also kinda blame the gays in Los Angeles County for not getting their shit together better ..... how did they manage to only get 50% no votes?? Also, my volunteer experiences with the campaign did have signs that it was a cluster fuck disorganized set up.

hollyMmm

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:32:13 -0800

Meg: great link, thank you.

johnnystarseed

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:31:28 -0800

@Elizabeth - I think that's implied with the Barack Obama choice - he brought out the black vote. I think someone posted on this site that 7 out of 10 African americans voted yes on prop 8 (or I read it elsewhere). He did give us a 1.5 second shout out during his speech the other day, but I guess playing the game is more important than "change". You could argue that you have to play the game in order to be in power to create change, but I was "hope"ing for something better:(

megang

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:29:39 -0800

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#CAI01p1 If this doesn't change your mind about blaming the Mormons I don't know what will!

Elizabeth

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:24:27 -0800

Why isn't "the black vote" one of the choices in the poll?

megang

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:19:55 -0800

25% of San Francisco is not Mormon. Does anyone know where I can locate a breakdown of the vote based on income, race/ethnicity, gender, etc?

zippy_monster

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:13:49 -0800

fizzy wizzy: yup.

The Angry Young Man

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:09:14 -0800

Jennifer Siebel.

kmsinsf

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:04:29 -0800

I'm not saying I agree, but possibly Gavin Newsom as an option? Just cuz he's fun to blame things on.

dantsea

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:01:00 -0800

Jameth.

scopa

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:00:52 -0800

I really think it was the ads about Gay marriage being taught in schools. Parents don't like to talk to their kids about HETERO sex/relationships. I bet they were scared to death about having to answer questions about GAY relationships.

SFX

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:00:02 -0800

i'm not sure blaming it on "hate" is necessarily the most productive thing to do, unless the endgame here is to create an easily recognizable "enemy" and not to move forward and figure out ways to undo this.

xyz123

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 10:57:13 -0800

Placing blame is lame. Can I vote all of them? If I had to choose, do people realize with all the lines for early voting San Francisco had just under 50% voter turnout?

jnice

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 10:49:47 -0800

I ain't no Hasselbeck girl.

oskarv

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 10:49:45 -0800

you know, i always used to think all those Mormon boys riding around in their bicycles, passing out propaganda were cute! now they've lost their appeal!

Brock Keeling

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 10:46:05 -0800

ourselves? how very un-bay area of you, fizzandpop!

fizzandpop

Fri, 07 Nov 2008 10:44:35 -0800

YOURSELVES