July 24, 2008
Carless Sunday to be Carless Market Street?
Inspired by Gavin's plan to close the Embarcadero to traffic two weekends later this summer, Chris Daly decided to see Gavin's plan and raise him a street or two by proposing that Market Street should be closed to cars from Octavia to the Embarcadero. The only sort of traffic allowed will be buses, taxis, delivery trucks and a few other very important vehicular thingies. The reasons for it include helping MUNI buses move freely, getting more people out of cars and on public trans or bikes, helping save the environment, and because it’s kinda a cool idea.
Also, as you all know, driving down Market Street is kinda impossible, so why not?
Lining up against the idea, natch, are merchants along Market Street who fear that the closure's will hurt business. They point out that a similar thing happened in Chicago, killing the area until they reopened it. Elsewhere, the results have been spotty at best. Also lining up against the idea are Gavin's people who think it’s a non-starter, especially because it's been proposed by Mr. Daly, a person with whom Gavin spokesman Nathan Ballard referred to as "not exactly the president of Mensa." Gosh, isn't the level of political discourse in this city so illuminating?
The idea has actually been kicking around for awhile and was even once proposed by Willie Brown. Also quickly killed by Willie Brown.
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DO IT. The only people who drive on market are lost. Most other large cities outside of the US have pedestrian main streets, or only allow cabs and public transport.
Shame Daly's behind it.
Does anyone in charge of this city understand the concept of "cause AND effect?" You close down Market and Embarcadero and exactly where is that vehicular traffic going? Van Ness? Franklin? What about all of the people (bay area residents and tourists) who drive into the city on the weekend? Or those who want to get to the ball park for a game? Or any of the restaurants or businesses along either street?
Why are retarded monkeys running this city? Is San Francisco that far gone that we couldn't even get some non-retarded monkeys???
Don't be afraid, RobinSF. San Francisco will still have hundreds of miles of streets to drive on.
Best of luck there Chris.
How about extending the transit only lane all the way from Van Ness to Embarcadero? MTA won't even do that.
@RobinSF: No one (that I'm aware of) is proposing a permanent closing of Embarcadero. It's a two day thing. People will figure it out.
As for closing down Market, the traffic will go to Mission or Howard or Folsom. No one with any sense drives on Market anyway because it's a fucking mess.
And I don't understand the "what about restaurants along the street" argument. You can't park on Market anyway! Shit, I guess you'll have to park somewhere nearby and walk, just like you always have.
Okay, first of all, I'd like to know specifically which large cities have "pedestrian main streets." There are certainly pedestrian malls in many cities, but they are definitely not the "main streets," nor do they extend for miles, like this section of Market. (And if you're thinking about European cities, these pedestrian malls are often medieval streets too small for traffic anyway.)
Secondly, and most importantly for this city at the moment, the last thing Market St. needs is to take away any more normal people from an area that suffers from daylight shootings, open drug use and defecation, and other scary behavior on sections of that street (6th & Market anyone?).
Thirdly, and just 'cause I have to do this, I'd like to point out that car traffic isn't why Muni's so slow on the street. You really think banning cars will suddenly make the buses come on time?
If the purposed closure of Market Street was from Steuart through 8th St or even Van Ness I might entertain the idea and support it. But as it stands, closing Market Street all the way through to Octavia is lame.
If I were a Market Street dope fiend this would be my dream come true. Many more miles on which to shoot up unmolested, particularly in the evening hours.
@mamcart: In Portland, both 5th & 6th avenues (the "transit mall", it's called), which run right down the center of downtown, have been closed to cars (except buses) since 1977.
This is a brilliant idea, I only wish this had happened a long time ago.
Folks, it is time to wake up to the fact that no one in their right mind drives down market st. now. In 10-20 years, no one in their right mind will be driving cars in cities at all.
Goodbye car culture, you've had a nice long run... can't say we'll miss you.
@mamcart- thanks for trying, but for your comment to be useful it needs to be relevant. The proposal is not to turn Market into a pedestrian mall. Do a little reading and try again.
Merchants pay to have FOOT TRAFFIC in front of their doors, not car traffic. Businesses do not depend on car traffic for customers. People, generally on two feet, walk through their doors. If Market had more cyclists, more pedestrians, more transit users and fewer cars idling in traffic it's logical to see that the climate for business would improve. Cars are not an efficient way to get people in large volumes into a dense urban area.
This idea sounds a little ridiuclous to me! Even if Market street were to be closed, there would still be vehicle traffic crossing the street at every intersection. This might work on a smaller street, but Market is just too big and busy to cut out all vehicle traffic.
MHTH: As the closure of Market St to private cars is in no way tied to Muni performance, I'm making the assumption that Muni would perform no better than it has up until now on that stretch (and in the tunnel below). Mission is not a huge street and already handles its fair share of traffic, so expecting it to take a sudden influx of cars banned from Market is unrealistic. (And Howard St and the other one-ways in SoMa are far enough away to find walking from those areas just to shop on Market similarly unrealistic.) And similarly, on the other side of Market, the streets are narrow, the grid confusing, and already saturated with car traffic. (Unlike Portland, where the "transit mall" is bracketed by two major, one way streets that run parallel. Although I doubt that Portland was one of the "major" cities "outside the US" that fizzandpop was referring to.) Nor is this proposal coupled with a serious policy to clean up the crime on parts of Market. (Although thank God, Daly's already addressed the pernicious cigarette-smoking problem that plagues our city. Hooray!)
So in this scenario, with all other things remaining equal, I see an overall reduction in foot traffic, not an increase. Do you really think there will be that much of an increase in bicycle traffic to make up for the loss of all the other normal people on that street? In that scenario, I wouldn't feel safe walking or biking on that street. Would you?
Chris Daly wants this to happen for one reason only: It would be cool for bikes. And I agree, it would be cool for bikes. I mean, it's impossible without completely destroying the grid system of streets downtown, but pretty fucking cool for bikes.
I don't own a car, nor am I siding with those who do. I just understand the history of stupid decisions by (supposedly) well meaning politicians in this city. Care not Cash? So they took away some money from the homeless and poor and guess what happened? More begging, vandalism and robberies to make up the difference. Increased police presence in Western Addition almost immediately led to a crime wave in the Marina. Clean ups in GG Park forced everyone out of the shadows and into all of the other neighborhoods.
These clowns don't actually solve any problems, they just move the pile of dirt from one spot to the next.
Closing Market and Embarcadero over the weekend is going to drive car traffic to other areas of the city and turn that entire area into even more of a combat zone. Who really wants to walk through 6th @ Market at night anyway?
Oxford street in London. No cars from Tottenham Court Road to Oxford Circus. Pretty much London's main street, that one.
this is so dumb.
Seattle and Portland have a bunch of transit-only downtown streets too. But what do they know about intelligent transport policy.
Lets bring back Horses!
i think it's a good idear. if it were up to me i'd probably stop it at VAn Ness though.
If Daly's try doesn't win, the street will close to cars naturally anyway. When gas goes over $200/bbl next year, there won't be Muni diesel coaches nor personal autos putting around anymore.
Anyone who thinks otherwise hasn't been watching the market.
I'm wholeheartedly for any idea that closes more streets down, so of course I'm on board for this. Next up, Columbus Avenue. I get all tingly just thinking about shutting that street down.
This will not go anywhere, not least of all because Ass-hat Daly is behind it. Willie Brown tried this, others have as well. It's a dumb idea, and will disappear soon enough.
Now, if only Daly would too.....
Yet you failed to notice the $10/barrel drop this week. Did you blink?
On the occasions I drive in town here I try to avoid Market past Octavia like the plague anyway, so I have no issue with this.
I'm definitely happy with it if they do it in conjunction with a real effort to clean up Market's pedways: for a place that so many residents and out-of-towners utilize, it's mostly a befouled civic embarrassment.
Befouled is my word of the day.
I'm totally behind this idea. Lock Market down from 5th to EMB. Bikes, buses and cabs only. Probably trucks too, to be realistic. Microcentro in Buenos Aires has something like this.
Unless you are dropping off or picking up someone at the Warfield, a store, or what have you, no experienced driver in San Francisco ever gets on Market below Van Ness.
I posted similar comments elsewhere, but I am not sure that this will make a huge quality of life difference because they will automatically or in the end allow so many kinds of vehicles onto Market:
MUNI
Parts of other transit system runs into SF
Google and similar private buses
Grayline and similar tour buses
Cars with HC Plates
Fedex, UPS
Commercial Vehicles
Police, Fire, Ambulance
Bicycles
And Shriner cars
I somewhat agree with Canary - close down Columbus at Broadway north until Filbert and Powell or somewhere near there. You can reroute traffic down Mason and up Sansome. They do it in all the major piazze in Italy after 5pm - why not here?
Again, the resulting effects would screw traffic for blocks around the affected area. And as anyone who has even bothered to drive into or find parking in NB on the weekend knows, it ain't happening.
You can close Market to traffic, but you will still have every cross street running cars across it. So how does that help?
@Fizzandpop
Yes, the price of oil is down, but you should double check your assumptions about how markets work.
In the mean time, I suggest praying to what ever god you worship for cheap energy. Let me know how that works out for you come this time next year, k?
Cheap is for the poor. We've got to get to Mad Max levels of scarcity before I notice.
Oh please, please, pdx, explain to us how markets work! You really sound like you know what you're talking about.