SFist: Muni Disability Disruption Delay

eugenia

Mon, 26 Jan 2009 14:11:45 -0800

Surely some people were standing in the space reserved for disabled people, and the sign clearly says that the space is reserved. They should have gotten off so that this man can get on, and they can catch the next train. Frankly there shouldn't even be signs telling us that we should reserve a little courtesy for people who are disabled. Now, even if this guy was a con artist, these train riders surely didn't know at the time so they were being selfish all the same.

remid0d0s0

Thu, 07 Aug 2008 20:11:44 -0800

The truth is: Muni has to make it possible for disabled passengers to use public transit, and has to provide signage stating that disabled persons have seating priority in designated areas. Muni is not required to enforce seating priority, however, because it's not possible, and it's not safe. It is certainly not a transit operator's job to verbally or physically confront a recalcitrant passenger over something like a place to sit. On the other hand, refusal to stop for or assist a disabled passenger in boarding is strictly illegal.

Sappho

Fri, 01 Aug 2008 20:01:47 -0800

Few wheelchair users are completely paralyzed from the waist down. It is possible to have some use of your legs and still need a wheelchair. It's even possible to be able to walk a few steps, and still need a wheelchair. I've heard doctors tell people with MS to flip up the footrests and use their feet as much as possible, even though they can't stand or walk. The idea is to keep the muscles alive. I used to do attendant work for people with MS and other disabilities. Being disabled means hurry up and wait, even though you are exhausted and sick. If you see someone using a wheelchair, just be glad it isn't you, and give up the damn seat! Be a human being!

travin

Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:26:36 -0800

spidra, good post. one of things I'm both laughing and shedding a tear over is folks comparing their experience of having to let 2-3 trains go on without them to someone in a wheelchair. If only they could see outside of their little me-me-me-brain bubble and consider that a person in [a wheelchair, crutches, brace, seeing-eye dog, cast, etc.] often has to suffer the indignity of letting 2-3 trains or buses go by several times a day, every time they travel, they might not be so - to be polite, obstinate, that their inconvenience is in any way equal with what a disabled person must endure. And we're just discussing public transportation, let alone the limitations faced at every doorway, every street corner, every home. It's no small wonder that we so rarely see disabled folks in public because they face daunting barriers and abject humiliation and hatred at the hands of the populace. Then again, I'm not posting this to preach to the choir. Better days.

spidra

Fri, 25 Jul 2008 04:18:47 -0800

I'm disabled. I'd say that if the guy was late for the train, he's late for the train. However, if he had arrived in time but not been able to fit in a particular area, he would have been able to claim the seating area reserved for the disabled and elderly if those seats were not already full up with disabled and/or elderly people. If this guy is the con artist folks say he is, then I'm happy that he got what's coming to him. People like that give honest disabled folks a bad name. However, remember that there are loads of honest polite people in need of disability accommodation who are having a hard time on our public transit systems because of a lot of able-bodied entitlement and flouting of the rules. Seats reserved for the disabled and/or elderly should be the *last* seats younger able-bodied people sit in but unfortunately, most people sit in the first (and toss their backpack next to them). An able-bodied person can, if they have to (if they have the $), take a taxi if the system is overloaded or broken - it's much harder to find a wheelchair-accessible taxi so think of that, too. It's not entirely rare for people on SF Bay Area public transit to flout ADA. I've had someone refuse to give up the disabled seat when I needed it even when I showed various ID papers verifying my disability (which is not readily visible). I've also seen young able-bodied people slouch around on bus seats reserved for the disabled/elderly while a heavily pregnant woman and frail older person had to hang on to a strap. For those saying the disabled have to have it equal by doing everything the able-bodied do at public transit, you need to try living the disabled life. Even with ADA accommodation, it's not equal. There are hardships, heartaches and tribulations that you're blissfully ignorant of. I encourage you to watch the episode of "30 Days" where former NFL player Ray Crockett has to live as a wheelchair user for 30 days. It's only the tip of the iceberg, but many able-bodied folks could use at least an intro to the issues.

Matt B

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:34:22 -0800

This guy got down to the platform well after the 40+ people who were already waiting for an outbound train. He was pushing himself with his legs in front of me, and I heard him cussing about not waiting for 5 trains before he could ride. The one car stopped, and people shoved on, and then he pushed through the crowd, as the doors were already alarming because the car was too full, and positioned himself in the middle doorway and wouldn't budge. The police came down and after much yelling by the crowd, driver and passengers, did not get on that train. The majority of the passengers waiting for a train didn't get on that one, or the two car that was held up right behind it. I'm all for giving up seats to the disabled, but they need to wait their turn too.

ianwelles

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:24:02 -0800

Just to get another vote for make him wait. Make him wait. I had to let three trains go by Monday AM. If I wheelchair dude got priority over me I'd be pissed.

jportillo

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 15:29:37 -0800

I agree with Bushy. I had to wait two trains myself before i could squeeze myself (barely at that)onto a train.

Bushy Hyde

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 15:04:51 -0800

People should have been nice enough to let him on, but I don't see why the disabled should be any less miserable than we are. Make sure the disabled have access to the same things we do, make them equals. Wait your turn wheelchair man... be an equal.

kainoa

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:09:05 -0800

how about this scenario? you're handicapped, but not in a wheelchair. you have a severe limp, and walk with a crutch. you're disabled, but can drive (though you have a blue parking pass), and and get around. you don't smell, and you even smile. should you get a seat? would you have the right to be pissed if denied? or, if you were on that train, would you be more or less inclined to let this person with a crutch onboard? what about blind folk and deaf folk. they're disabled, and even if they're able-bodied, they might not have been able to get onboard. a wheelchair shouldn't be any different. right?

withak

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:34:19 -0800

Trick question. The N-Judah doesn't go past Dolores Park.

generati

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:34:08 -0800

So, IF the wheel chair guy HAD been trying to get onto the train on the front or back door (where the wheelchair securement location is) it would have been up to the passengers to do the right thing. In this case he was NOT trying to get into the car where the wheelchair securement location was though.

RobInSF

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:27:44 -0800

If the N-Judah leaves Dolores Park heading for Powell Station and the L-Taraval leaves the Embarcadero at the same time, how fucked is everyone trying to get on the 1-California outbound at Stockton?

hollyMmm

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:56:07 -0800

Federal Law 49 CFR 37.167 (3): "The entity (muni) is not required to enforce the request that other passengers move from priority seating areas or wheelchair securement locations." http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/octqtr/pdf/49cfr37.167.pdf

icbalaam

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:52:19 -0800

@Akit, Travin mentioned that too. It is odd. We're assuming the train was full of able bodied individuals not only in the middle section but in the front and rear as well. Let's reverse that assumption. If the train had been filled with the elderly and persons with disabilities would this guy be allowed on if there wasn't room? Further if I'm a 70 y/o man, in a wheelchair and legally deaf does the combination of those three things make it so I should always be allowed to ride every MUNI train or bus regardless of it already being filled with other elderly and disabled riders? @jportillo, thanks for the furthering the story!

Leanne

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:49:39 -0800

Riding the Metro lines during commuting hours sucks ass, period. Unless you're boarding at Embarcadero or maybe Montgomery, forget it.

oskarv

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:45:17 -0800

having a wheelchair and relying on muni must suck ass.

jportillo

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:42:23 -0800

I caught the tail end of this action. When I arrived he was talking to two Police men. They were going rounds about his rights. By that point he wasn't let on the train he wanted, so the cops told him as long as he wasn't disrupting any service he would be fine. Then the guy got in an argument with some young woman behind him (always fun to watch, my favorite part was when he told the young woman "you just want to have sex with me but you couldn't pay me enough"). By the time the next train pulled up everyone was pretty much ignorning him. The train pulled up and he said "here we go again". He yelled that he was disabled and that if he didn't get on he would hold up the train like the did the last one. I didn't see anyone get off but he did get on. The look on their faces as they realized he was going to be barking at them the whole ride was kind of priceless.

Akit

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:13:24 -0800

This could be why people didn't let him in. The wheelchair section is always near the end of cars because the lever under the seat moves the seats up to provide room for wheelchairs.

Akit

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:12:35 -0800

I'm looking at the photo a little closer... I don't think the guy is using the appropriate ADA doors. It is either double doors on the front of the car, or the rear doors. The guy is boarding from the MIDDLE of the car. You can hardly see the Muni logo on the far right side, and the logo is always near the front end/rear end of cars. Also, the line and destination sign is always in between the front/end car and the middle door set.

OrangeDrink

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:59:25 -0800

It's true. Legally (and hell, let's say morally too) this is a gray area. Any lawyers want to comment?

withak

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:38:19 -0800

If everyone in the ADA seats stood up then there would be even less room for him to get on. Some internet lawyer needs to tell us if the intention of the law is to give handicapped people just priority in seating or priority in being on a full train at all. Maybe Muni could appoint some inspectors to rank people by able-bodiedness? If a bunch of wrinkled middle-aged people want to get on a full train then the inspectors could have the authority to kick off an equal number of 20-somethings.

hudu

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:30:53 -0800

If there was room on the train, and people were standing in the handicapped area, of course they should move and let the guy take their spot. But this was a full train. ADA is supposed to level the playing field, so let the dude wait just like all us non-handicapped folks do when a packed 1-car train pulls up.

mariconsoy

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:24:55 -0800

suckafree is right. burn baby, burn!

suckafree

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:18:16 -0800

icbalaam makes a great point. shame on all of you losers that would probably watch a gangster kill a pregnant woman on a train and choose not to get involved. you are all going straight to hell!

mariconsoy

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:14:38 -0800

Those in the disabled space on the train needed to yield to him. The driver needed to make a PA telling them that. I guess that's too logical to expect MUNI to know to do in a tough situation.

Ciaran

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:14:11 -0800

Was his BMW with disabled permit parked right outside Peet's too?

Brock Keeling

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:09:34 -0800

he had to wait for another train.

hollyMmm

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:07:32 -0800

Anyone know the outcome? Did he get on the train, or have to wait for the next?

icbalaam

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:07:05 -0800

How many commentators here who say he should be allowed on a crowded train would actually vacate the train and wait for another? Here on SFist it's easy to exclaim, "I would!" However most would hide behind their sunglasses, earbuds in place, reading a newspaper or book all the while acting oblivious to what's happening because at the end of the day they just want to get home.

PoKonrad

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:02:28 -0800

(P.S. I don't claim to have any knowledge of whether or not he was within his ADA rights.)

PoKonrad

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:58:19 -0800

I know this guy personally. He is, in fact, disabled. He can stand up. He can walk with a cane for very short distances. All y'all who want to play doctor had better learn you can't diagnose without directly observing, let alone speaking with a patient. (Some knowledge of medicine beyond what one gets off sheer supposition helps, too.)

Camifornia

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:33:36 -0800

No. Wait your fuckin' turn, cripple.

bornandraised

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:19:06 -0800

Oh, and while I dont know if abled bodied people are required to depart the bus to let on the handicapped, I do know that if 2 handicapped people are already on the bus in the wheelchair spots that a third will have to wait. Or if there is one "service dog" already on the bus and another tries to get on and they start to get tense with each other than the second dog's owner will most likely be told to exit (happens all the time on the 19 midday)

bornandraised

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:17:02 -0800

@tad_benton The solution is more of the lower-riding muni buses and savvier drivers. I don't know about these people who say it takes 6min to load a wheelchair user, because on my morning commute on the 48 it maybe adds an extra 1-2min onto my ride - max to get the same lady on the bus at the same stop. But maybe its because people have lost the resentment from becoming used to it, and the driver isnt surprised to find a wheelchair user at that stop, but its like clockwork, and there isn't another 48 behind us at the end of the 2 minutes barking at our tail.

tad benton

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:00:37 -0800

@OrangeDrink, Ah, yes. Good point. Thank you.

bluecanary

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 08:56:33 -0800

He has his feet on the ground which leads me to believe he isn't really handicapped, but is one of those homeless people who somehow obtain a wheelchair and use it to make more money. I see them frequently scooting along with their feet. That being said, my experiences with the handicapped is that when I've tried to accommodate them by holding the door for them, etc., they get nasty and yell at me. They want equality? They're just the same as everyone else? Then let 'em wait for the next train like everyone else.

OrangeDrink

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 08:42:55 -0800

tad benton: They feel they same way. It's hard not to feel resentful towards people on a bus who you know are pissed off at you for having been in an accident that left you unable to move your legs. For the sake of fairness - we have no idea what was being said/what he was doing etc. It's pretty damn hard to believe that whatever he was saying could be so bad that everyone thought this guy deserved to not get on the muni, but who knows? Still, goddammit, let him on the damn train, shit heads! Also he looks like Mike from Twin Peaks.

withak

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 08:37:11 -0800

I don't have a problem standing if someone in a wheelchair wants on the train, but I don't think being in a wheelchair entitles you kick people off the train so you can get home quicker.

Richmondlover

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 08:07:48 -0800

If he had a valid transfer or MUNI pass they should have tried to squeeze him in. That said, there have been many times that I have had to wait for a second or third bus or train because the one I wanted to take was full. If he did not have a transfer or pass, then he had no right to expect to be let on to the train.

tad benton

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 07:43:40 -0800

How does ADA priority seating affect buses and trains as full as these? It is clear from the signs that one is supposed to give up their seat for a disabled person, but it's not clear that one is supposed to give up their space on the bus entirely. This is just a question. I couldn't find a decent answer to it. Anyone know? Also, I feel like anyone who rides transit with any regularly builds up a nasty, uncomfortable resentment of the wheelchair bound. They don't want to feel that way, but when six minutes go by while someone is loaded and strapped in.... It's frustrating and it has a ripple effect on the whole system. The bus behind catches up, and they stay bunched for the rest of the trip. Obviously it's not just wheelchairs that cause this, but it's a real problem, and it's spoken of only in whispers and grumbles. Anyone got a good solution?

the_absentee

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 07:17:22 -0800

OK let's assume that a majority of standing passengers don't see 'fake disabled homeless guy with dollar signs in his eyes who can use his legs' and that he's actually a handicapped guy. It's here I say, not only has MUNI hit a new low, so have many of the MUNI riders.

reechard

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:47:10 -0800

No-one abuses the services at the airport for transporting those less ambulatory, right? And no-one would abuse a "first priority" designation for wheelchairs on public transport, right? Or would there be a flood of wheelchair-bound George Costanza's come rush hour?

Plug1

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:49:38 -0800

yeah fuck it, let him on. aint no fun if the homey's cant have none. right??

cablecarsam

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:47:23 -0800

I'm sorry but someone with a disability does not sit so upright in his chair with a look of dollar signs in his eyes as he jams a doorway and makes everyone wait for him. grrrrrr I am not prejudice, as you can see I believe all people regardless of race, color, creed, handicap should be treated equally. No one ever said this life would be easy. Women in high heels should be granted the first seats! Not a guy already sitting down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

travin

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:39:54 -0800

Here's a thought - accessible seating areas in train cars are located at the front entrance of all trains and buses. So why would a practiced disabled person attempt to enter through the middle entrance of the car?

SFconguero

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:38:43 -0800

If those two girls could have just sat on his lap, he would've been able to fit in that car...or he could of just gotten up and folded his chair..I've seen this guy before, his legs work fine.

suckafree

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:27:27 -0800

sue muni? fuck you! sue the piece of shit commuters that wouldn't let him on the train and take the next one in 7 minutes. losers!!!!

travin

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:15:14 -0800

@thisboyelroyI saw him using his legs. And this means what, exactly? That you can diagnose disabilities through the superpowers of osmosis?

mpantone

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:53:01 -0800

We're talking about one wheelchair on one Muni car. Everyone make some room for this guy. Much as I hate the litigation-happy proclivities of America, I encourage this guy to sue the pants off of Muni. Hell, we already know that Muni kills people. Why should anyone be surprised that Muni stomps all over someone's rights.

thisboyelroy

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:49:40 -0800

I saw him using his legs.

Antagonist

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:28:15 -0800

I think I know that guy... He or someone like him always panhandles around West Portal by Peets. He gets into trouble with Muni all the time. Last time we spoke I think he was in a MUNI train which breaked suddenly and tossed him out of his chair and flung his head into a seat. I'm all for him getting his space on that train. Able bodied people can walk there if they have to. He can't. It's that simple.

Generic

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:17:56 -0800

Title II, the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990. The gentleman was within his rights. You surrender your space to the handicapped. Period. It's the law.

travin

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:17:37 -0800

'You people' make baby jesus cry.

Akit

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:15:20 -0800

If Muni reads SFist, maybe they can clarify the law using their overpaid lawyers. Or you are just using that cheap lawyer with the perm shown on local TV during the soap operas, you know that guy with the phone number staring with 444.

RobInSF

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:06:31 -0800

Can't you smell the burning hair and brain matter confounding the many flavors of self-righteousness among us? - Is this guy some drunk/druggie abusing the system? - Is he truly disabled? - Did he have to pee or poo? - Maybe his momma gave him up? - Maybe his daddy didn't love him enough? Such a moral conundrum! Maybe he really is just star people. He's famous on SFist now!

cablecarsam

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:54:37 -0800

What person in their right mind would want to get on that germ infested overloaded car. One sneeze and you're of of work for a week. Honeycups should protect their health :(

Protein

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:37:26 -0800

He probably is legitimately handicapped, even if he has some degree of mobility. However, he is also probably working up a law suit against the city. Bush 1's ADA law was supposed to help mainstream the disabled, but it was really an attack on public institutions. I know of one visually impaired individual who likes to boast that Muni bought him a nice house in Novato by failing to announce all stops. This isn't urban legend. I've met the guy. I also have a friend, a wheelchair user, who was denied service because the driver claimed he didn't know how to operate the wheelchair lift. My friend pushed himself off the sidewalk and sat in front of the bus. He told the driver he would wait for him to learn. I'm glad I wasn't on that bus, but I don't have a problem with what he did. As to good samaritans or the lack of them, the whole idea behind the disability rights movement is that disabled people should not have to be dependent on kindness and charity. They should be allowed to make their own way in the world, just like everyone else. Able bodied people like to shriek about the unfairness of accommodating a small minority, but we are all asking to be accommodated in some way. Why provide stairways in Muni stations? Why not save money and trouble by making riders pull themselves up by ropes? You mean you couldn't pull yourself up by a rope? Well then I guess MUNI isn't for you.

mattymatt

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:30:30 -0800

We're all assuming that he's handicapped just because he's sitting in a wheelchair.

hollyMmm

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:28:15 -0800

he could have waited for the next train just as easily as 6 people could have gotten out to give him space. I blame the muni for never having enough trains during rush hour.

falese

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:13:02 -0800

i saw this guy get off a muni car in west portal. tonight,as he crossed the street he sat up in his chair, folded the footrests in and started pushing himself like on a skateboard. Then he went into peet's coffee stood up at the counter. All the people who got off with him had the most evil looks in thier eyes. now i know why.

ivoteinsf

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:10:20 -0800

People, when you hang out in the "reserved for persons with disabilities" area on public transit, you run the risk that someone with a disability will actually want to assert their right to that area. If that happens, you cheerfully yield your seat and either displace another able-bodied person or be a good citizen and get yo' own ass off the bus.

zippy_monster

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:49:40 -0800

Out of curiosity if anyone happens to know: was wheelchair guy correct that there is a federal law granting him the right to board any train no matter how full? Eye the signage on the trains, on the platforms, and the verbal prompts on the buses. Seats must be given up. Think of it this way. He's got a bulky wheelchair, it'll be much easier to squeeze a few extra people on the next train.

zippy_monster

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:49:14 -0800

miss mess

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:46:56 -0800

um, YES he should have been let on. the space reserved for disabled people has to be available to them. ADA, end of discussion.

cablecarsam

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:42:18 -0800

There's no room buddy. Wait for the next one like everyone else. You are not a king. You are a man in a wheelchair taking up more room so have a little patience. People are too rude to move to the next car for you. Sitting in the doorway of a train may explain why he is handicapped in the first place. Some people never learn!

uggie

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:41:54 -0800

Yes the LAW says let 'em in. Paul McCartney 1976 style. He probably was tired and had to get home to be able to pee. Wheelchair users often have ta holditin. ok

strack

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:21:15 -0800

I think this is kinda this guy's schtick, as I saw him doing the same thing the other day on the 38. It's the little things, ya know?

porkbun

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:14:38 -0800

I was on a train that didn't let him on- it may have been that one. Considering it was full rush hour and most people on that train had crushed themselves on at Montgomery or Powell, there was no way they were gonna get off for that dude. It's not like one good samaritan is enough, every commuter in his path would have to clear up space. The law implies that he can have a space on a train, but not that it has to be that one.

Doctor Memory

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:12:39 -0800

Out of curiosity if anyone happens to know: was wheelchair guy correct that there is a federal law granting him the right to board any train no matter how full? My understanding of the ADA and similar access laws was that they don't pretend to rewrite the laws of physics: a full train car is still a full train car. But I'm not expert and could easily be very wrong.

Akit

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:10:32 -0800

Muni keeps hitting new lows.

mattymatt

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:09:01 -0800

I don't see how you could say no to a wheelchair guy. I mean, he's got it bad enough already, and you could always just wait for the next train. (Which should be along in an hour or two.) But the fact that a shit-ton of people refused to let him on -- in San Francisco, where everyone loves to make a big show about being a good Samaritan -- makes me think that maybe he was doing something really repulsive. Or he smelled. But I mean really. Given the option between "give up my spot to the awful person" versus "refuse to budge, thereby prolonging the drama," I'd probably have chosen to end the drama.