SFist: Pink Bags One Step Closer To Losing Their Prominence on the 30-Stockton

katerose26

Tue, 20 May 2008 07:05:46 -0800

fizzandpop- I don't know you, but I think I love you.

cholim

Tue, 20 May 2008 00:34:02 -0800

dudes, you can still use the pink bags. they just have to be biodegradable, like the kind that decompose into Iron Mountain pink slime. also remember my children: people is recycling green!

Belgand

Mon, 19 May 2008 21:56:37 -0800

When I go to the grocery store on the corner or only get a few items at the grocery store I make the amazing decision to just carry things in my hands. Yes, I know it's scary not having a little bag there to hold things in, but if you only have four or five items (and how much crap are you usually buying at the drugstore?) it's very doable.

jnice

Mon, 19 May 2008 19:10:11 -0800

darfur.

The Angry Young Man

Mon, 19 May 2008 17:24:50 -0800

Akit - I got your point, I just don't agree with it. The suggestion that we should either flat out ban all plastics or not even bother is ludicrous. Cutting back on the use of some plastics is still cutting back. It's a step in the right direction. ChinaNob - Your argument is based on a flawed premise - that plastic bags will be replaced one for one by paper bags. Rubbish. I think quite a lot of people are now avoiding paper bags as well. For example, I use my big ass Timbuk2 messenger bag and/or my chico bags when I go grocery shopping and I now use biobags for the garbage cans. I yell and shake my fist at my lazy, shiftless, mind numbingly dull housemates for dragging home paper bags when there's no need for them. I do the same thing when I see them bringing home produce from south of the equator. They're selfish, useless humans and they hate me because I'm better than they are and they know it. I digress. I would like to see all bags at stores banned flat out. People should carry their own bags when shopping. No excuses.

daithi

Mon, 19 May 2008 17:22:26 -0800

@fizzandpop, that was an interesting point you made, and one that upon further reflection is definitly worth considering.

fizzandpop

Mon, 19 May 2008 17:13:22 -0800

Nah, it's not long enough and DOESN'T USE CAPS.

Generic

Mon, 19 May 2008 17:07:07 -0800

Plastic bags can't be used to soak up the blood of the City's latest homicide victim. best comment evah. should win some kind of award.

fizzandpop

Mon, 19 May 2008 17:06:12 -0800

I think there is a size competition going on here this afternoon so here's the winner. I'm going to ramble on about nothing in particular for the next thousand or so words because I have nothing better to do. Occasionally I'm going to make random comments with someone's name attached to the front, you know, to get a bit more attention. ChinaNob - See, that worked, got your attention, but haven't really got anything to say about bags per se, except that those large ones you get from Target are a bit of a handful when you're trying to use one to pick up poop in the park. New paragraph, that's good, helps people scan and all that. Let me see, really should make a point about the whole bag issue really. Perhaps I'll just put the word FACTS in caps instead. Done that, really struggling to give a flying f**k about the bag issue. I know, Ill just attack someone's comment. Let me pick someone at random. @ Athan - honestly, I picked you at random. But I strongly disagree with what you said about whatever it was that you disagreed with. You fail to see the big picture, I have FACTS that disprove whatever position you hold on this issue and I'm going to post links to them in a minute so you can see for yourself that you were wrong in some way or other. This will undoubtably change your whole perception on the issue and make you feel extremely silly that you ever thought it could be any other way. Anyway, I heard a really good emo joke the other day: I wish my lawn was emo, then it would cut itseelf. That made me laugh a bit. Maybe I should put it on a t-shirt or something. Then I could point to it in the pub and spread the good cheer around. Wicked idea. How am I doing for length? This should be enough I think, maybe string it out for a few more lines just to make sure. There we go. Post.

bluecanary

Mon, 19 May 2008 17:06:03 -0800

When I know I'm going to the grocery store, I pack canvas. But I also bought five Chico bags. They fold up inside themselves tiny and I threw one in each purse, plus one for my desk drawer. That way, when I think "Oh crap, I need to stop at the store," I'm covered. For dog poop, I use the black bio bags. Using a plastic bag to pick up dog poop? Ugh, you can see the dog poop THROUGH THE BAG. GROSS. And I get the poop of three dogs all in one bag (it must be witnessed to be believed). When I get a paper bag, I use it over and over. The bakery lady says she loves me for it. Big paper bags I use as a bag to throw my recyclables in. All the plastic bag excuses I hear make me want to vomit. Get with the program people, it's not hard. Even for a self-absorbed yuppie such as myself.

RinconHillSF

Mon, 19 May 2008 17:02:56 -0800

I like the Chico Bags .... easier to carry around than canvas. www.chicobag.com (Nope, not my company nor employer, so on and other disclosure so forth)

ChinaNob

Mon, 19 May 2008 16:48:11 -0800

Well, if it takes 4 times as much energy (or more) to produce a paper bag than a plastic one, I wouldn't exactly call that sustainable. And when you factor in that it takes a lot more water (and increasingly limited resource) to produce a paper bag than plastic, it gets even murkier. Is litter bad? Yes. Is non-degradable waste in our landfills bad? Yes. But so is wasting water. So is using more fossil fuel derived energy inputs used to produce a paper bag. So is sending more carbon into the atmosphere to produce said paper bags. Good intentions it may be that drive this ban - but the facts on the ground (those pesky FACTS) just as often point out the folly (and unintended consequences) of these kinds of bans. Athan is right - this is really more about symbolic feel-goodism amongst the political set than it is about really addressing the types of significant, systemic problems that local governments should be focusing on - crime, schools, housing, transit. Time, money, public will - all are limited resources. Resources spent pissing in the grocery bag wind are resources not being spent on more important things. Like, say, bearing down on the City to complete its EIR so the bike lane injunction can be lifted, getting more people to NOT drive and pollute the air we breathe. As for those whining that I am whining about forgetting my canvas bag - the point - missed by the slower amongst us - is that relying on 100% perfect participation for anything is folly. If sound economic science (or any analytic social science) has taught us anything, its that policies need to be shaped based on how people are GOING to behave, not on how we think they OUGHT to behave.

Akit

Mon, 19 May 2008 16:48:07 -0800

I don't think you understand my point Angry Young Man, I was saying that I can still go to a wholesale store (in this case, Smart and Final) and purchase all the bulk plastic bags and stryrofoam products I want. This law has no merit if they can't just outright ban the sale of the damn product. And don't call me a moron. Next time, read my comment carefully before you make your counter argument. As for another topic: I don't mind using canvas or tough plastic bags that can be reused over and over again. They are a great bargain and the costco ones can hold a ton of stuff. The problem with certain places is that they are so damn stingy about giving you bag credit. Safeway gives you only THREE CENTS per checkout transaction, and Lucky's only gives you a nickel if you only reuse their small dinky bag.

The Angry Young Man

Mon, 19 May 2008 16:32:20 -0800

Waaah! Waaah! I'm entitled to plastic bags! How dare you deprive me of my GOD GIVEN RIGHT to plastic bags! Mewl! Whine! Amurrica! I get so sick and tired of morons whining about the plastic bag ban. Akit - Huh. One store that like no one shops at is still using plastic bags, so, therefore, the law isn't working? Yeah. That makes the kind of sense that doesn't. ChinaNob - Your sense of entitlement is truly nauseating. Sometimes you *forget* to bring canvas bags to the grocery store? Well, cry me a river, son. That's your stupid, lazy assed problem. Maybe you best be spending your time developing some new habits instead of whining to all of us like a big, fat baby about how deprived you are. Christ. Athan - You're conflating issues that have absolutely no relevance to one another. What? You expect the BOS to patrol the streets, seeking out murderers and miscreants rather than doing their jobs? Criminals would push Michaela Alioto-Pier over and she'd be left flailing about like a sowbug stuck on its back. Clearly you hate the cripple community if you want to send one out into the streets to fight crime. Ever heard of something called the police department? Guess what? That's their job! Besides, Dreamy Mirkarimi, my very own personal supervisor, is well known for chasing down thugs in our district and smacking them around. You know nothing. There are a variety of reasons for banning plastic bags - using a sustainable resource (i.e., wood) instead of a non-sustainable resource (i.e., oil) to produce these products, reducing the amount of plastic that ends up floating out to sea so it won't harm the three or four fish left swimming around out there, cutting back on litter and waste. Fools need to wake up and smell the coffee - we have to change the way we live if we want to prevent doing irreparable harm to our species and our planet. Duh.

fizzandpop

Mon, 19 May 2008 16:21:17 -0800

Paper bags? Canvas bags? Have you tried getting a decent autoerotic climax with either of those stuck on your head? (I have, A LOT). Honestly some of you people just don't think your posts through. They'll want to ban belts next, and oranges.

Matt415

Mon, 19 May 2008 16:11:14 -0800

Now I feel like all plastic bags are forbidden fruit. I used to collect them (like every other student from UCD) to use as bike seat covers during the rainy season. Can't we have plastic bags made from corn oil or something?

Greg

Mon, 19 May 2008 15:59:30 -0800

@Chinanob- also in the article it's mentioned most people in Ireland use canvas bags one can use over and over again. So the whole "oh they only use paper now and that's bad" thing isn't entirely on point - but you are correct in that if we simply replace one plastic bag with one paper one, it's not so great. The real solution is to eventually phase out most paper bags as well. I mean think about it - does anyone wanna show their grandkids an empty forest and go "um but we had to carry our groceries in paper only?" There are solutions to all of these problems, we all have to be willing to listen and to pay attention, and focus on the bigger picture, not just the short, soundbitey solutions the politicals peddle so they can slap some slogan on a mail piece and jam it in your mailbox.

wsanders

Mon, 19 May 2008 15:31:33 -0800

Blah blah blah. Where *I* live (Contra Costa County), we can recycle plastic bags in our recycle bins. You guys in SF are behind the times. You can recycle plastic bags in Walgreens, too. The one next to my office has a bin for them and it's actually full of plastic bags, and not trash.

mushmouth

Mon, 19 May 2008 15:23:47 -0800

Isn't this the same site that whined about how ineffectual banning cigarette sales from pharmacies would be? Don't a good deal of those cigarettes end up as plastic and paper butts on the side of the road, then down the storm grate all the way to the ocean? Supervisor Soul Patch should jump on that one, as it's also a public health issue. But I guess that would piss off his American Spirit Smoking vegetarian Lower Haight hipster voters.

Athan

Mon, 19 May 2008 15:04:55 -0800

Plastic bags can't be used to soak up the blood of the City's latest homicide victim. Paper bags are absorbent and can better conceal dean bodies. Am i the only person who thinks that the City's crime rate, the homicide rate especially is a real issue that our politicians artfully dodge by focusing on what are essentially consumer issues? Mayor Newsom wants to ban cigarette sales in pharmacies? How about letting the consumer decide where they want to spend the money that they've earned and you keep the thug outside the Walgreen's from taking their wallets! That's what I'm concerned about. Paper or plastic issues can be resolved by the private sector and by consumer groups through the sharing of information and the influence of culture. If you don't believe in plastic bags, then bring your canvas bags. If you think there's a better idea like biodegradable bags, then get some venture capital and open a manufacturing plant before China does. Instead most San Franciscans would rather mock the President, shout no war conspicuously drive hybrids. Rather than really think and really act, people want easy answers provided by a Mayor who's hair product alone leaves a larger carbon footprint than a convoy of Priusus en route to Burning Man. Oh yeah, what about BURNING WOOD IN THE DESERT? Does that not destroy the environment? No, that's different. What about all the chemicals used in the manufacturing of thousands of ecstasy pills and meth? "C'mon man, that's different and that's not as bad as what the oil companies are doing. They're the real problem." Sure they are, those goddamned plastic bags, I hate them.

ChinaNob

Mon, 19 May 2008 14:53:31 -0800

@ greg - Yes, Ireland was succesful. But you'll note, in that same NY Times article, buried after the lede, the article notes that the manufacturing and shipping of paper bags releases more greenhouse gases than plastic. In a world of melting ice caps, I care more about greenhouse gas emissions than a marginal reduction in landfill waste stream. Also, after Ireland instituted its plastic grocery bag tax, use of plastic grocery bag fell 94 percent. Yay! Unfortunately, the sale of plastic garbage bags rose 77 percent.

ChinaNob

Mon, 19 May 2008 14:45:01 -0800

@ atthebeach - yes, paper bags go into the recycling bin. however, it takes signifacntly less energy to recycle a pound of plastic than a pound of paper, meaning the recycling of those paper bags is burning more fossil fuels. also, because of the need for strength, paper grocery bags are made with a high percentage of virgin wood. i'd also note that the production of paper bags requires the use of a lot of toxic chemicals. finally, it takes a lot more energy to produce a paper bag than a plastic one. @mdw526 - I can't reuse the paper bags for trash - the garbageman won't take them because you can't seal the open top paper bag like you can tie of a plastic one. i'd also note that i can reuse plastic bags for doggie poop - can't do the same for the paper. my statement was the farthest thing from being dumb. and finally, yes, I have heard of canvas - but sometimes one forgets one's canvas bags, or buys more than expected. and most people do not bring canvas bags and depending on people to do so is just assinine. oh, and that whole landfill problem - there's also the issue that even PAPER bags don't decompose in lanfills - the modern landfill is such a low oxygen environment, that most things take a really long time to decompose. also, paper bags take up more space in landfills than plastic. (again, yes, the paper SHOULD go into the recycling bin - but depending on voluntary participation is folly as far as public policy goes)

mdw0526

Mon, 19 May 2008 14:29:17 -0800

Uh, ChinaNob, ever hear of a canvas grocery bag? To say you used to re-use plastic bags, but now just throw away the paper ones is one of the dumbest things I've heard someone say in a long time.

atthebeach

Mon, 19 May 2008 14:25:09 -0800

@ Athan: Why are you picking on Brock? He said there would be fewer pink bags, not fewer Chinese people riding the buses. I have been known to venture into Chinatown (a derogatory place name, BTW) by bus to get groceries, and I'm not of Asian descent. I see a lot of riders who are not Chinese, even now. @ChinaNob: The paper bags belong in the recycling bin, not the trash. @ Brock: "obsoletion" was a nice back-formation from obsolete and deletion, I'd guess, and a lot easier to spell. "Banwagon" is also good. Keep playing with language - that's how it evolves.

icbalaam

Mon, 19 May 2008 14:19:30 -0800

@Manny, the 45 is technically called the "45 Union-Stockton", isn't it? @Athan: umm, did Brock touch a nerve with you, or what? BTW-- markets do sell "bio-bags" for dog waste which breakdown in landfills.

Greg

Mon, 19 May 2008 14:10:46 -0800

Once again you have a half-assed policy with lots of good intentions, but no teeth to make it truly effective. Targeting only chain stores is bogus - if these things are indeed evil, then everyon needs to either stop using them or pay the cost of disposing of the little bags. Funny thing, Ireland managed to virtually eliminate plastic bags in ways that our Esteemed Leaders don't even dare to dream of. Why is it in SF we treat every problem as "too big" and "unsolveable" while everyone else finds a way to make things happen? http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/02/world/europe/02bags.html?_r=1&oref=slogin http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2205419.stm

Athan

Mon, 19 May 2008 14:05:31 -0800

What a dips**t. Nice. I guess Brock works on the Clinton campaign as well. A little racial overtone in the headline, suggesting fewer Chinese people might be riding the "45" Stockton bus in the near future. Very good. You might want to know the punch line though before you hit it Brock. By the way all you people, the plastic bag as you may recall was the idea of environmental activists in the first place. The thought was that paper, although recyclable, was using our trees and that plastic would save the trees... Hmmm, guess that didn't work. Maybe sometimes over thinking the obvious is the problem. Plastic bags aren't the problem, people who litter and throw them away are the problem. Swallow that one kids. By the way, I wonder how many of those black porno bags Brock has stashed away for the little doggie poop. A s**t! What are you doggie lovers going to use to pick up the doggie droppings? Some sort of reusable device made of, PLASTIC?

ChinaNob

Mon, 19 May 2008 13:57:01 -0800

Before when I got plastic bags from Safeway, I would at least reuse them as trash bags. Now, when I get my groceries in paper bags, those nice, new clean paper bags go straight in the trash. This plastic bag ban is going to go down as a classic example of the Law of Unitended Consequences of government action. Just like corn subsidies for ethanol - which scientists are now saying has led to an INCREASE in carbon released into the atmosphere. Soon we will discover that we traded slightly less plastic waste in our landfills for cutting down more trees, leading to less trees sequestering carbon.

MannyOrtez

Mon, 19 May 2008 13:53:05 -0800

It's the 30-Stockton and the 45-Union, crackho. You must be a BART user -- or, GASP -- a driver .

Brock Keeling

Mon, 19 May 2008 13:22:17 -0800

oops. always trust the red squiggly line, people.

atthebeach

Mon, 19 May 2008 13:18:44 -0800

Did you mean "obsolescence"?

katerose26

Mon, 19 May 2008 13:01:29 -0800

Long live the Pink Plastic Bag Mafia.

Akit

Mon, 19 May 2008 12:35:36 -0800

Yeah well, the law doesn't really work when you can still purchase styrofoam and plastic bags at Smart and Final on 7th Avenue between Geary and Clement.