October 2, 2007
SFist Mail: Stop Using "the" Before Freeway Number
Due to yesterday's Day Around the Bay, SFist received the following, like, totally awesome request today. It touches on an issue that will one day have Northern Californians and Southern Californians battling it out in a blood-soaked, brutal massacre to the end: using the article "the" before freeway numbers.
I have been enjoying SFist. Thanks for the neat articles, links, etc.As a native San Franciscan, one of the things that I would like you to please consider is how the writers refer to freeways in the Bay Area. In the Bay Area (unlike SoCal) there is no article “the” that precedes the freeway identifier number. For example, The James Lick and Bayshore Freeways (US 101) are “101”, NOT “the 101”. The Southern/Junipero Serra Freeways are “280” or “Interstate 280”, NOT “the 280”, and so on. (Unless it is used to refer to “the 280 Extension”). In SoCal, the use of “the” is perfectly acceptable; in the Bay Area, it simply demonstrates the ignorance of the writer or speaker. “I-280” can be somewhat acceptable, but it ranks right up there with the use of the word “ain’t”.
I am sure that you are aware, being a San Franciscan now, how utterly important it is to preserve the distinct Bay Area heritage from the ever increasing “SoCali-nization” of the San Francisco region (with the exception of Trader Joe’s and In N Out Burger, of course) . Your attention to this seemingly minor issue will be most welcome by many San Franciscans who recoil at this improper terminology regarding Bay Area freeways. And many of us will be able to sleep peacefully at night, knowing that the creeping encroachment will be postponed or even reversed by your deliberate action, should you choose to do so. You CAN make a difference and prevent the Bay Area from becoming merely “North SoCal”.
-- Bryan Mion
Well, first of all, better being known as “North SoCal" than "Little New York". (Ick.)
And B, we'll try to stop, Bryan. We really will. But it's hard to let it go of it since even les artistes indies seem to prefer the article as well. Take, for example, Lisa Marr's "In California" (as performed by Neko Case) sings about "another suicide on the 405," Switchfoot croons in "Amateur Lovers" about "driving home on the 805," and Death Cab for Cuite's "405" has the line about taking "the 405 and drilled a stake down into your center."
OK, the aforementioned artists might be a reason to actually stop using it, but you see our point.
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Didn't hipsters declare the definite article dead about four years ago? At least for use in band names...
Please add me to the number of those readers who would enjoin your editorial staff against using the definite article before freeway numbers. Our peculiar regionalisms are what set us apart from the teeming masses. Besides, doesn't it blow this SF Bay Area-specific blog's credibility when you folks use a regionalism used only in our hated opposite number down south?
Mr. Bryan Mion, I salute you.
I know there are lots, tons, bunches of transplants here in the City, and we're better off for it, I think. But once the transplants arrive, I too have those moments where I hear something that sounds like proverbial fingernails on a blackboard.
Since when is SFO shorthand for San Francisco? Dudes, that's the airport, homies.
I hate SOMA. I'll never say NOPA.
And whyohwhy are there soooo many dodger fans at Giants games? Whyohwhy aren't said dodger fans being spit on?
But yes, the #1 indicator of a transplant is the "the" before the freeway number. Who does that??? It's just so effing weird.
And Brock, those artists singing those songs using the article, well, you do know where those freeways are located, yes? Exactly.
OUCH!
Ignorance? Man this guy really made me feel like a huge loser for being from SoCal. Yeah, there is a reason I moved up here. And it's NOT because WE say "the" before the freeway name. As in, "THE freeway Interstate 101".
In college, I wholeheartedly embraced "hella" as I was embracing other cultures, and as a way to live as one in my freshman, 1/3 norcal, 1/3 socal dorm. I still use it to this day. As well as the definite article. And I sure hope this guy doesn't speak spanish - the use it more than SoCal people do!
And I really like how SoCal is ignorant, but he will eat In-N-Out and buy from Trader Joe's. He's not even an equal opportunity douche, he just picks and chooses what HE likes.
Final Point: SF is a unique city. The Bay Area attracts many transplants. Don't ignore it, embrace it! And if you don't like it, hop on the 101, the 80, the 880, the 280, the 380, or any other freeway, and don't get hyphy.
Anarthrous versions rock.
What? 805 & 405are both SoCal interstates. Go ahead and get your kicks and The Route 66.
I'll agree with stopping using the definite article before highways. Nice to know I'm not the only one who gets a little annoyed by it.
But at least y'all aren't saying "Frisco" or the 415.
Jesus.
Jumping on the bandwagon by referring (incorrectly) to half of our state as a "hated opposite" does more damage to any sort of credibility than a three-letter word in front to a freeway number.
Oh, and don't forget- Google Launches 'The Google' For Older Adults
Greenster: First of all, 101 ain't an interstate. Whichever part of California you're from, you should know that! Unless....heaven forbid, you're not from the Inland Empire? Anyways, I kid because I'm a San Fernando Valley transplant myself, and like you (I'm sure) came up and lived in the Cal dorms. Aside from hating the social experiment I was forced to live, I quickly pinned the overuse of "hella" as a sign of a Sacramentan (Sacramentite?). That was not a habit I was about to embrace.
I have, while driving down I-5 tried to figure out at what point it went from being I-5 to The 5. Same with 101, at what point does it become The 101?
HappyChandler asks "...at what point does it become The 101?"
I'm going to say 10-20 minutes after the grape vine, right at the moment when you start to regret renting a Kia instead of that convertible or...worse. (Hint: it starts with a "S" and ends with a "V")
"Jesus.
Jumping on the bandwagon by referring (incorrectly) to half of our state as a "hated opposite" does more damage to any sort of credibility than a three-letter word in front to a freeway number. "
What? I really don't understand this statement. What bandwagon? The "I hate l.a." thing? The "SF is better than l.a." thing? These aren't bandwagons, dude! These are SF traditions! What the heck? And what's incorrect? That socal is the hated opposite of NorCal? Huh?
I really hope I missed the sarcasm.
Anyway, I also think that we should all run around one night with chainsaws and take down any and all palm trees in the City. My eyes bleed whenever I see them.
Brock, I am not jumping on some bandwagon(!) Let me put it to you this way: how happy do you think I, a fat feminist in book publishing, was when I lived in LA for a year?
What really grates on me is when people call San Francisco things like "frisco" or "san fran"
BTW, I remember "hella" was quite the word to use growing up here in San Francisco.
Bryan Mion you are my hero.
As for you, Brock, I hope your tongue was firmly in cheek quoting songs about Southern California freeways in your defense! ;)
Leave 'the' in The OC Bubble.
Oh! Another thing: It not "the OC" -- which started after McG got his Michigan-born paws on the place and ruined it -- it's actually just "OC".
Also, OC and SF have much more in common that both of them care to admit. The self-righteousness and intolerance on both end runs very deep.
I was just in Boston where people constantly referred to our lovely city as "San Fran." When did this start? Why do they say it? I'd prefer Frisco, believe it or not.
Yes, "the" before a highway tells the listener that while your heart is in SF, your lexicon and grammar are from LA.
The "the" is not Bay Area, and I'm a native, and my cousins are from Southern California- San Diego, LA, etc. So I've been hearing this difference a lot.
I'd actually say, though, that it only sounds awkward when you're referring to southern California highways without the "the," but in Northern California, you refer to those freeways without an article. So it depends where the highway/freeway is, to refer to it appropriately. Examples:
"Yeah, 101 was backed up, so I took 280 to San Jose."
"I took the 405 going to work the other day, even though I heard there was a sniper."
Hey NorCal and SoCal...to those of us from "The Rest Of The Country" (insert banjo theme from "Deliverance" here), you both sound funny! For us, "I" before the highway number is the preferred usage.
Just to be annoyingly pedantic, the line about "the 405" in the Death Cab song refers to the 405 bypass in Washington state, not SoCal. In WA, at least in the Seattle area, they put the "the" in front of freeway numbers as well.
You might as well add to that list of annoyances people who refer to "the BART," instead of just "BART", or "the Muni" instead of just "Muni".
And not to pile on, Brock, about your citation of songs featuring Southern California freeways, but Death Cab is from Washington, Lisa Marr is from Canada, and I don't know about Switchfoot, but their name alone screams Southern California, so I don't think those are the best examples!
That is just bullshit and bad grammar. You need to add the article before "101" because it's not a proper name. It's "THE 101 FREEWAY." You don't want to waste breath on all three words above? Fine. Then don't forget the article so that we know wtf you're talking about. You don't say "I'm going to get on freeway" - you will get on THE freeway." Inanimate objects like freeways don't get to be their own proper noun. THE 101. THE 5. THE 405. THE 285. THE 17.
Dumbasses!
This Absolut ad on the back cover of last month's 40th anniversary issue of The Advocate said it well.
(you'll probably have to delete it, Brock. Or are they an SFist sponsor? (they so should be)..
And please add my 2¢ to the conundrum and please don't call it "cali".
Does not appear that I can embed a photo in my Comment:
So ...the Absolut ad is ==> HERE
In Canada they use the "the" in front of the 401, which I've been on outside of toronto somewhere. So Fuck, I guess The City is being invaded by The North, The South and The Cannucks.
Oh, and the "I" refers to the Interstate Highway (Federally built and maintained as part of the Eisenhower system). 101 is a United States Highway (State or locally built & maintained), not an Interstate Highway, like I-80.
If your really old-school, then you'd call the roads by their names as Bryan did in his email.
From wikipedia... "U.S. Route 101 may be called the "Oregon Coast Highway" in Oregon, and the "Pacific Highway" in parts of Washington and California. It is also called "The 101" or "The Ventura Freeway" by residents of Southern California or simply "101" by residents of Northern California and Oregon. From north of San Francisco and continuing to the Oregon Border it is also referred to as the "Redwood Highway"
Ricardo, that ad is total bollocks-- the dividing line is ridiculous. Southern California gets Bakersfield, Northern California gets Fresno. That's the way it always has been and always will be.
They can keep Fresno. And is there any way to move that line so we don't get Stockton either????
What we do like to do is refer to San Francisco as "The City". My relatives, living as far away as "the" gold country, have been doing so for much more than 50 years.
Now what I really hate is hearing someone call highway 1, anywhere from Big Sur to Arcata as "the pacific coast highway" or PCH.
Audra McDonald is from Fresno, thus it is most spectacular.
Also, was can find out if it's Nor- or So- the most reliable way: any Fresno-born readers want to chime in with their "the" usage?
I think you're missing the point.
The function of the definite article ("the") before the noun is a byproduct of the enormous mental space freeways occupy within the mind of the average Los Angeleno.
This is perfectly natural. It's part of their local idiom. It's not part of ours because we don't spend so much of our lives on them. (Shut up, Contra Costa.)
We don't say "Take I-80 easy to Oakland." We say, "Take the Bay Bridge." It's not about proper syntax. It never has been. The grammarians can go fuck themselves.
Up here, our freeways are not personalities in and of themselves, and that's a good thing.
My original (less diplomatic) comment posted as guest appears to have gone into the void, so let's try again...
Look, this whole SF-LA "rivalry" is just absurd. I use that term in quotes because it's very much one-sided. Angelenos love San Francisco. San Franciscans despise LA. It's very much a tale of unrequited hate that manifests itself in San Franciscans' apparent need to define themselves as "not LA." Frankly, it reeks of inferiority complex. And that's a shame, because it's so unnecessary. Anyone who visits SF knows what a great city it is and how much it has to offer, so why is there this incessant need to belittle LA - and for that matter, any other city that suffers from simply not being San Francisco?
As for the appropriate use of definite articles, we're supposed to drop the article before freeway names because it's 'too LA,' but keep them before neighborhood names despite the grammatical absurdity because that's 'very SF?' "The Castro?" "The Mission?" "The Richmond?" "The Sunset?"
You nailed it, yatdave. A city famous for eating its own, SF has a serious Jan Brady complex when it comes to So Cal.
I went to high school and college in SF and no one I knew said "hella" unless they were from LA or Sac'to. So, MythBusted.
Also having grown up here, we refer to every freeway as "the freeway", as in, "Nah, I'm going to take the freeway", and people just assume which freeway you're talking about because it's such a small area and there just aren't that many of them.
As in the case of 280 vs. 101: "The freeway was backed up, so I got off and took the other freeway." Anyone else experience this?
Sigh.
"The" is in front of "the Castro" because "the Castro" looms large in the mind of the typical San Franciscan.
Interstate 280 does not.
We put "the" in front of persons, places or things that are unique. "The Queen", "The Nile".
Freeways with numbers are by their nature already unique.
No one says "The North Beach". Capeche?
Sangfroid826: North Beach doesn't loom large in the mind of the typical San Franciscan? "The Sunset" is more unique? And I assure you, when you spend two hours commuting on 280 every day, it looms pretty large in one's mind.
This whole definite article thing is simply local idiom; there's neither rhyme nor reason to it, whether you're taking about freeways in LA or neighborhoods in SF.
Kay: What you say may be true for occasional freeway drivers. I don't know. But for anyone who commutes down the peninsula, there's a tremendous difference between 280 and 101, so making the distinction becomes important.
THANK you yatdave!
WHO CARES? We all know what we are talking about. If you really want to discuss something, lets talk about how ridiculous the Los Angeles Angels are. Especially when Los Angeles means "the angels" in Spanish. Now that's stupid. freeway names? Who cares?!
Actually, they're the Anaheim Angels. Or at least they still should be.
I don't care if its done to make a distinction between being from here or down there. The reality is we do drop the definite article from freeway names, so as to make the number of the freeway become its actual name. (My mom's from out of state and has always, even after 40 years here, felt the need to comment on our lack of using "the" in front of our freeway names.) You wouldn't say head west on 'the' Fell and turn right on 'the' Divisadero, would you? No, just as we from the Bay say "to get to Rockridge, take 101 North to 80 to 24 East, exit at Claremont." Simple.
Another endemic direction/freeway naming habit we have is to not give exit numbers as is done almost everywhere else. I was thoroughly confused the first time I drove out of state and was told to exit at a number and repeatedly asked the direction giver for the name of the exit only to again get a number. Frustration ensued but eventually I got it. Yes, I'm a little slow at times.
As far as "hella" is concerned, Sac had nothing to do with it. Everyone knows its an East Bay phrase, end of story. To use any variation, such as "hecka" or "double hella" is incorrect and demonstrates a lack of appreciation for this versatile and descriptive colloquialism. We got nothing against West Bay and SoCal folks using it, just use it properly.
There is a reason, yatdave. Region-wide terminology doesn't evolve on whim. People have reasons for labeling things the way they do. Check out the examples you cited:
"The Richmond." Which Richmond? The city, the bridge, or the neighborhood? Oh, the neighborhood. Great. We'll leave the city without the "the". Because otherwise it would be confusing.
"The Castro." Same deal. The awesome movie theater? Castro Valley? Cuban dictator? The street between Noe & Diamond? Oh, the neighborhood. I see. We'll not use the article when speaking of the almost-dead commie or anything other than the neighborhood.
"The Sunset." The sun setting? The street between 36th & 37th? Oh the neighborhood. Same deal.
"The Mission." The church? The street? The Morman adventure to the outside world? Oh, the neighborhood. Etc. Etc. Etc.
There is no other "North Beach" or "280" or "101" to be confused with. So no "the". You see the pattern.
I can go on an on until this concept is clear.
Agreed, sangfroid. Although I do hear folks refer to "the North Beach" at times - perhaps meant in opposition to "the South Beach" which has recently become a place where people supposedly live.
Well, at least none of these little regional variations annoy people!
Claiming regional cred for "hella" is like boasting that you move your lips while you read.
have you heard its derivative, "hecka"?