SFist: SFist Photo: Lexus vs. Bike on Confusing Octavia Blvd.

murphstahoe

Thu, 27 Sep 2007 14:35:54 -0800

There is a traffic circle in SF - on division at 8th/Townsend. It used to be not such a big deal, but it's becoming a bit of a death trap. It's on a primary cycling route as it's basically the way to Caltrain from where 80% of Caltrain Bike commuters live - Mission/Noe/Castro/Glen Park/Potrero. The traffic in this circle is getting pretty heavy with the addition of businesses around here, and the Starbucks/etc... on Townsend. Unlike most traffic circles, instead of a Yield, the entrance to the circle is a stop sign. The problem is that from 8th street the cars tend to treat it as a yield because the entrance to the rotary is soft, and multiple cars come barrelling in. From Divison, the entrance is more abrupt. Across the rotary, the entrance is very soft and cars tend to run the stop sign in front of cyclists, who are almost certainly trying to go right onto Townsend. It's getting bad there recently.

J

Thu, 27 Sep 2007 14:09:53 -0800

Thanks happychandler...you are right about that (3). I should change the second part of my answer to: you better watch your ass for traffic stopped in the local lane, in case they do not yeild to you. ;) I agree, however, with all those saying there should be no turns off octavia. Enforcing it might be a bitch, as people in this city generally don't follow do not turn signs, anyway. Most of the time when I drive through there, the through lanes (or fast lanes as referenced above) do not move very fast, as it is rush hour. But maybe some speed humps designed to slow vehicle traffic down to about 25 mph would be appropriate on that stretch.

aj

Thu, 27 Sep 2007 13:50:56 -0800

Wsanders: SF tried those baby traffic circles (ostensibly for "traffic calming" purposes, but really to alleviate cyclist guilt about running stop signs) a few years ago. They went over like a lead balloon. Big roundabouts work if there is plenty of space. They do not work as an alternative to a four way stop, or at least they did not here.

aj

Thu, 27 Sep 2007 13:49:14 -0800

Yep. Octavia Boulevard is all about what people should do Auto drivers should stay in the center lanes. Bikes and parkers should stay on the right. Nobody should turn from Market to the ramp. A few homeowners on Oak should be able to park in front of their homes as they have always done. Etc. Except that nobody knows what they should do, because in order to make it a "beautiful urban boulevard" there are almost no signs explaining what the hell it is all about. For SF transit experts, hey, no problem, everyone was the public meetings and voted on the ballot measures, right? But for everyone else it is damn confusing.

redseca2

Thu, 27 Sep 2007 13:19:48 -0800

I gained another perspective last month regarding Octavia Blvd. returning from a motorcycle trip to Jackson Hole and Yellowstone. My last day out, I started in Boise, Idaho and ended up coming down from I-80 to Octavia. I realized that a percentage of the vehicles were just like me, they had been on highways, mostly in rural, empty western places for hours and now, by crossing Market, snap your fingers and click your ruby slippers: you are in the full expression of San Francisco. And unlike me, some of them are notfrom here.

wsanders

Thu, 27 Sep 2007 11:37:14 -0800

Barcelona is full of streets like this, and, amazingly, I didn't see anyone get killed when I was there. No moving from the "side" street to the middle street, and you cannot turn off the middle street once you are on it except at the relatively infrequent traffic circles. The middle street gets different traffic signal indications from the side streets, which are basically for parking and turning only. God help San Francisco if they ever implement traffic circles. Drivers would be shooting each other in no time over right of way disputes, since the successful operation of a circle depends on at least most people actually obeying the law and showing a bare minimum of common sense and courtesy.

abayer1138

Thu, 27 Sep 2007 11:26:18 -0800

I live on Oak between Octavia and Gough, and my car is actually parked on the northbound Octavia local lane between Haight and Page as we speak. As I mentioned in a guest comment on the earlier post about the Oak/Octavia intersection, these intersections are death traps - waaaay too many people don't grasp the concept of the blinking red light. I'd definitely prefer if the answers for questions #2 and #3 were no - when I get off 101 or turn onto Octavia, I go directly into the local lane, either to park on Octavia or turn onto Oak or another side street to park. But until they toss up no turn signs like post #7 suggested, that won't happen. And the bigger issue is the idiots in the local lane who don't know what they're doing there and blast through the blinking red as if it were a green. Even better are the people who think the "No right on red" sign doesn't apply to them when they're in the local lane - even better still are the people who think the stop sign means they can go *straight* through the intersection from the local lane on a red light. I've seen cops ticketing people coming through the Oak intersection and not stopping in the local lane, but not for a while. They should get back on that.

tungwaiyip

Thu, 27 Sep 2007 11:06:15 -0800

Tough quiz, huh!? For question 2 and 3, the answer should be no. Driver has a easy decision to make when entering Octavia. For thru traffic to Fell, use center lanes. For local traffic, parking, or right turning, use the right lane. No switching once a lane has chosen.

HappyChandler

Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:54:31 -0800

Guest#5: Easiest would be putting up "No Turns" signs on Octavia and "No Right Turn" signs every 12 inches. But, they should not go into local access immediately, they should only go on it for a block. Otherwise it is too tempting to hop in local lanes and take it the whole way. Speed bumps would help there.

HappyChandler

Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:50:55 -0800

J (#4): #3 you have the wrong answer. If you have a green, you do not yield right of way. Local access has a stop sign, they must yield right of way. In the heirarchy: Through lanes have priority, then cross streets, then local access lanes. Why there are flashing red lights (PDF warning) Page 8: Operationally, there are intersection control confusions because conservative regulators were not willing to experiment or give people a chance to adapt. The side lanes ought to be controlled by stop signs and the central lanes by traffic signals. Concern over this unusual arrangement (which has been shown to work just fine on Chico’s Esplanade) prompted the installation of flashing red lights at the access road intersections, which drivers have difficulty interpreting.

guest

Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:50:14 -0800

As far as the stop signs and lights go, I'm pretty sure it means that when the light is red you don't go through the intersection and when it's blinking red you stop and then continue. The problem is that anyone traveling in the middle lanes is driving a lot faster and thinks they can suddenly turn right onto Page or Oak etc or turn into the right "local lane" without being extremely careful. The result is inevitably these fast moving cars turn into bicyclists, pedestrians and other cars and people get hurt. When the middle lane traffic is moving so fast it's next to impossible for the local lane travelers(or pedestrians walking) to be able to predict when someone could suddenly turn right, that's why there are accidents like this on a daily basis around this area. The solution should be to make it clear that the middle "fast" lanes are only for drivers going to Fell Street. Any traffic turning right should have to immediately go to the local lane as soon as they cross market. There should be giant lit up signs stating this on the freeway, on the off ramp and all along Octavia Blvd. The middle lanes should only be for Fell Street thru traffic only!

J

Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:38:11 -0800

I drive through octavia every day on my commute (except when I bike/train commute). Here's my answers to your little quiz... 1) The light flashes red when octavia has the green. When cross traffic gets the green, the light changes to solid. So it's dual action: either acts just like a stop sign or a stop light. 2) You can switch from right to middle after a stop, if traffic is clear. You can switch from middle to right if you have the green. The lane you are merging into has the right-of-way. 3) Same answer as above. You may turn, but you must yield to the right-of-way. As for bikes crossing...bikes are vehicles and should drive on the right side of the street, not the sidewalks. They also must obey the traffic signals. "It's not like there are any signs telling you what to do." Um...You could also check the DMV website for the rules of the road booklet: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/pgs16thru17.htm#intersections Besides, people don't like to follow signs that tell them what to do. Isn't that why there are so many bike-car accidents at Market and Octavia? The intent of the third lane is for local traffic, with thru traffic staying in the middle lanes and turning onto Fell. I know this is a difficult concept for many residents and visitors of SF to comprehend. It requires them to think a little and use just a wee little bit of logic.

HappyChandler

Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:37:04 -0800

http://www.sfgov.org/site/octavia_blvd_index.asp?id=238 Traffic Controls on Octavia Boulevard Traffic controls on Octavia Boulevard are designed to reinforce traffic movement priorities. The center roadway is given first priority, traffic on the crossing streets second priority, and traffic on the access roadways the lowest priority. The center roadway and the cross-streets will be controlled by signals along Octavia Boulevard. Travel along the access roadways will be required to stop at every intersection. Were I to redesign the flow based on current roadway setup: In order to turn right, you would have to get in the access lane a block ahead of your turn (no turn from central lanes). Right turn only except for bikes on the access roads. Sign things well. I donate my idea to the City and County of SF gratis. They can thank me later.

Jas

Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:31:30 -0800

I think the idea is that the right hand lanes are only for parking and "local" travel, i.e. when you want to turn right from octavia to page, you switch over at haight to the mini lane, get to page, and turn right. I believe that the center lanes are no turn lanes the whole way through, yeah? Sort of like the jersey turnpike - local lanes on the outside, express lanes on the inside. I think you have to view them as separate, parallel, streets. I've driven down octavia both directions hundreds of times and never had a problem ... maybe people are just stupid?

HappyChandler

Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:29:14 -0800

The outer lanes should be for local traffic only, in my view. If you're not looking for parking on Octavia, don't be in them. You can turn right from the right-hand lane on the through boulevard, and the people cruising up the local lanes have to stop and wait for you to pass. That's why they have stop signs. My question is if you can make a left from the local lane onto Haight, and if you can go from the rightmost through lane past Fell, up to Hayes.