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We've ridden Muni's new hybrids along both the 27 and 48 routes for a couple of weeks now, and our experience has been slightly mixed. The good aspects are that the buses are sleek and extremely quiet, and their layout seems more ergonomic and conducive to large amounts of people getting on and off on a frequent basis. There are many more straps for standing passengers to grab onto, and every vertical pole has a "next stop" button. The buses are also lower to the ground, eliminating the need for steps, and they appear to be more wheelchair-friendly, although we haven't observed the boarding of any yet. The seats are arranged in a way that makes each one desirable to sit in, and we love that there are now three single-seats as opposed to the old diesels that had only two. The back of the bus is now on a platform -- much like AC Transit's buses, which almost feels theater-like.
[Update: We rode the 48 hybrid again on Saturday after we had read all of the comments in this thread, and here's our addendum:
We had forgotten to mention that three out of the five senior seats closest to the front door also double as the designated wheelchair spot. This means that there are only two remaining disabled seats within reach of the front door, as opposed to nearly six senior/disabled seats on the old buses.
Also, the hybrid on Saturday was especially hot, and it was never in direct sunlight. Half of the windows were closed, but like lhitch said in the comments, we felt way too short to reach them. Ventilation seems to be lacking in these buses, regardless of the A/C issue mentioned in the comments. It might not get hot that often in San Francisco, but the greenhouse effect still applies to Muni, especially when the ventilation is less than desirable.
In regards to the folks who had mentioned how the new buses seem to also lack proper moving-around room, including SFist Jeremy: We noticed that the front area does seem to be constricted by a short wall on the right side that divides the senior seats from the singles and juts way out into the aisle. We're not exactly sure why the wall is there, maybe for wheelchairs, but it definitely interferes with the flow of traffic.
Finally, the back door is a pain in the ass. After hearing in the comments that there was some "laser beam" to sense our hand pushing on the door in hopes that it will open, we lightly touched the yellow part of the door and then waved our hand around. We were the only ones getting off, and another passenger softly yelled out "back door" for us, then finally the door opened. Like jportillo, we weren't sure whether we finally opened the door ourselved or if the driver did...]
See the cons after the jump!
On the other hand, we observed some cons to the hybrid buses, which are purely situational. We recall counting about seven designated senior/disabled seats compared to eight on the old buses (someone correct us if we're wrong), but the layout seems to be trickier for seniors. There is now only a total of five sideways seats up by the front door, along with two forward-facing seats in the front row. (We also think the first single seat should be designated for seniors as well.) There's a large gap between poles in the very front, which we've observed to be very disconcerting to more than a few bewildered seniors who, upon finding that all of the front seats were filled by other seniors, clung to the fake wood Muni-paneling before they slowly made there way to an empty seat further back. The 27 and 48 lines don't tend to have large amounts of seniors and disabled folks compared to other lines around town, so this experience was kind of an odd occurrence. We're also guessing that the new hybrids will be easier for everyone to navigate once we all get used to them.
Another complaint isn't exclusive to hybrids, but the issue should have been addressed in this new fleet. Muni, we beg of you, put some g-damned tinting devices on the windows! Muni, do you understand how hot one whole side of the bus gets when the sun beats down on it? We were on an old diesel 27 bus a few months ago that seemed to have the perfect solution, which we're hoping will get implemented on all the others. (Please, Muni?!!) Each of the windows were framed with a see-through tinting material with fairly large, rectangular cut-outs, so we could still see out the windows. Pretty much all of the glaring sun was blocked out, which made for a nicer ride on a hot and crowded weekend day. It's especially annoying when the left side of the hybrids are sun-stricken because that side has almost twice as many seats than the right side.
Our final observation is also not exclusive to the hybrids and seems to be the one thing that Muni always seems to want to mindf**k us regarding: THE BACK DOOR. One must open the back door of the hybrid by pressing lightly on the middle, yellow part, and of course panic/anxiety only seems to make them open more slowly and haphazardly. Some things never change.
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I don't know if it's just my perception or reality, but I'm usually a "stander" on Muni buses and the new ones (I've taken the hybrid 48 about 5 times) feels like the walkway/space between seats is more cramped.
Re: The light-touch back door. I've observed on numerous occasions people who strong-arm themselves through the door screaming "back door please, back door please!" in panic. The design is not intuitive in the least.
Just this morning I was on the 27 and was confused by the back door. The sign seems pretty easy, but when I put my entire plam on the strip and it didn't open I had to try other places. I don't know if I ever got it or if the bus driver just got tired of me trying and opened it on his own (I don't know if they can do that, but im guessing he did).
The back door issue will be eliminated when people start observing before they start shouting. I'm always amused by folks that will shout "back door motherfucka!!" while their nose is six inches from a sticker that says "push handles to open doors" or whatever. This will also help with those people who get on a 71L and proceed to have a meltdown when the bus skips their stop.
the bus which you mentioned that did have some amount of tinting was due to an advertisement which takes up the side of a bus. its for a camera (not sure which one) and the caption for the ad is "try to get these people to smile" referring to the people you can see through the square cutouts if you are looking at the bus from the street....
The new buses are H-O-T. The tiny vent-windows do nothing to air out the Essence of Vagabond that lingers in the upper back section of the bus. (Did you notice the claustrophobia-inducing lack of rear windows? If I can't breath, at least let me see!)
I had a simliar review on my site....the ride is better but the a/c is so so...at least on the trains they can blast cold air on a hot day....
http://www.njudahchronicles.com/2007/08/riding_one_of_those_fancy_hybr.html
The LRVs blast cold air... yeah. I think I've gone 2 for 8 as far as working A/C on the trains in the past few days.
These new hybrid busses are very cool and work well when loading and unloading wheelchairs. I prefer these busses!
--C
http://www.aotksc.com/rtwist/
#5, you're probably right... I hadn't noticed that there was an ad on the front, but honestly, I wouldn't mind an ad like that where the windows aren't completely obstructed and I would still have a UV-free ride. Even if the joke was on me, I guess...
#7 Greg, that's funny. Pretty much the same observations! And Melisa's is a great restaurant. I've also been to the sister location in Potrero Hill, which was great too. Still haven't tried the others...
Has anyone else noticed that on hot days, the N-Judah air conditioning only works in the front half of the first car? 25% AC? Driver only? The hell?
Today I was on a T in the subway where the A/C was working, but there was so much condensation that every time the train started to move, it water fell onto at least 6 different seats. It was funny to watch people both at each station, look at the wet seats and move to the back part of the train.
Sheesh, both ==> board.
Folks, if the A/C isn't working 100% call it in. If 311 doesn't work from your cell phone (I'm looking at you Verizon Wireless) call 511 say MUNI then operator and you'll get hooked up to 311.
I've taken a new bus to and from work for about 3 months now. My current theory regarding the rear door is that you have to touch the panel and then remove your hand. If you leave your hand in contact with the panel, it won't open.
The fact that I ride this bus daily and STILL have to theorize on the operation of the rear door after 3 months indicates, I think, that the design is quite poor.
On sunny days, these buses are so hot that I'm covered in sweat by the time I get home. How can it be that there's no air conditioning? Surely no one would think those tiny windows would keep the bus cool.
My conspiracy theory: the buses have AC, but the drivers don't/aren't allowed to use it. Where is ask a MUNI guy when you need him?
Today was my first day on the new hybrids during the hot weather. The A/C was NOT ON, and there was (oddly) eight people on the bus. While sweating like a pig up in the back balcony, I remembered that the back door is super tricky. I spent the last half of my trip trying to figure out where to touch in it order to get it to respond. (I also spent the last two minutes trying to reword that last sentence without it sounding sexual.) I really despise the people who get mad when the door doesn't open right away, and I'm the person in front. One lady tried to push me to get by, and then accused me of getting in her way. Stupid.
I don't think the new hybrids have AC, they most likely just have heating and ventilation like all of MUNI's other rubber tire fleet (with the exception of the 60ft electric New Flyers). Why would it be cost effective for MUNI to order buses with AC when it only gets hot in the city on such a little amount of days?
The LRVs have AC because the subway tunnels get real hot during any time of the day.
You're not actually touching anything to open the doors. There are 3 sensors at the top of the doorway that take a second or two to notice you're in the doorway. The sensors also prevent the door from closing on people.
My only complaint is how the front door boarding area is really small. People who are paying the fare should allow those with fast passes to pass by instead of blocking their way.
The LRVs have A/C because some moron decided that sealed windows was a good idea. The only ventilation you'll get is through the decrepit HVAC system on the LRVs.
If 311 doesn't work on your phone, dial (415) 701-2311.
Regarding the back door, [17] is correct. YOU DON'T NEED TO TOUCH THE BACK DOOR. All you need to do is break the beam of light that is focused near the middle where the sign is. The signage on the back is awful, so people will be confused (but people are always confused). We'll see how long the doors take the repeated beatings.
Knowing how the Muni needs advertising dollarz, don't be surprised if the hybrids get all wrappy. Wrapping will block the the sun and the money will help keep the air conditioning running - Muni wouldn't want you wankers to get overheated or be subjected to the actual smells of other humans.
Low floor buses have an unfortunate problem of having wheelz. The raised theater seating in the back and the narrow channel at the front are necessary to address the wheelwells (oh, so you want the wheelz to spin). Compared to AC Transit's Yurpeon Van Hool (of Belgium) buses, that put precarious perches on the wheelwells and create a big low floor space in the middle of the bus, I think that the new Muni buses have a better layout. They don't require seniors to skamper up on top of the wheelwells, and don't force drivers to wander to the back of the bus to board wheelchair users.
Speaking of the wheelchair users, is there any consensus on the foldy ramps? I think that they are faster than the elevator things on the high floor buses. Is this true? Have you seen any tumbles?
Although there are plenty of little tweaks and suggestions for the current flock of hybrids, it was smart of the Muni to use Orion vehicles. They don't meet everyone's specs, BUT they are used heavily in other cities (Toronto, NYC). No more maintenance problems like you see with the awful special order ETI buses. ETI went out of bidness after the Muni contract (doh!), so Muni is ETI for all things regarding maintenance and support. This is not likely to happen with Orion.
Bus drivers I've talked to tend to like the shorty 30' buses more than the 40s. The 40s are slooooow when fully loaded and climbing up hills, where the 30s have better acceleration and handle like sportscars compared to other vehicles.
The feature on the low floor buses that I'm most happy with is the donut dispenser. Check the parking meter looking box located to the right when you board. With the right amount of change, the machine spits out tasty vegan donuts with range free chocolate sprinkles. I love you Muni... you thought of everything!
i agree. very hot on the new buses. i'm pretty short, and don't like how high the windows are in the hybrid buses. i can't even attempt to reach them to relieve my overheating.
I hate that there are no back windows to look out of. I am not sure why I want to look out the back windows anyway, but with so many sideways seats, it does seem to help orient you when your nose has been in a book and you start panicking because you think you've missed your stop and you're not sure you will be able to open the doors properly.
Sure, ETI went out of business, however they were created merely to satisfy the bullshit "buy american" mandates from the federal government. Skoda, the "real" coach builder in this case, is still around. Skoda was a poor choice, but lucky us, there aren't a whole lot of trolleybus makers left that want to deal with the American market.
Neoplan went out of business (left the American market anyhow) shortly after they delivered buses to MUNI due to warranty hassles. Lots of companies don't have the desire to deal with the hassles of the American transit market. Neoplan is still quite successful abroad (ditto Volvo and Skoda), and the AN440s and AN460s seem to be holding up fairly well in spite of MUNI's best efforts.
Orion (a Canadian company) lost the Toronto Transit Authority a few years back... this is/was in spite of huge Canadian government subsidies. This should tell you something about their quality. New York is trying the hybrids, but they're still, last I checked, huge fans of the GMC/Nova RTS coaches.
Subjectively the Orions 7s don't seem to ride that well. Even the shorties pitch forward and back more than some of the other vehicles in MUNI's fleet.
The engine itself is quieter than in the Orion 1s they replaced (but what isn't?)... but the turbo whine is #$!@# obnoxious. The sevens also seem smoother than the rest of the diesel fleet (save for the Orion 1s). But what wouldn't? The Orion Is have nearly indestructible Detroit Diesel motors. The other buses have had years of MUNI neglect, and exhibit signs of head gasket failure (plumes of white smoke), sound like they're not running on all cylinders, or perhaps the motor mounts have died. If they were in good running condition, the other buses wouldn't sound nearly as bad.
Inside, the air compressor is eh... quite loud and obnoxious just like in the NABIs. Oh, and I miss the forwards facing seats. It'd be interesting to hear a review from a wheelchair using MUNI patron.
New buses are nice, but let's hope they hold up.
I've taken the 35 bus line for years and the new hybrids are an improvement to our old diesel school bus. The issue still though is the heat inside and the space for standing is rough. Especially in the back..
Innaresting. It does make sense that the buses would pitch a little bit more if they are carrying their heavy ass batteries on teh roof, eh? At least they are not flippingz over.
What I can't understand is why people in the back are worried about no windows. These vehicles automatically announce stops (when programmed correctly) and have a display that indicates where you are.
I know very little about the Toronto Transit Authority, but the Toronto Transit Commission bought 150 of the Orion 7s in 2006 and NYC just placed an order for and additional 500(!) on top of the 180 that are in use now. If orders of 650 new vehicles (at approx. $488,000 a pop) can't be seen as a great testimonial to their performance I don't know what can. Also, according to NYC Transit, “They’re working just fine... performing as well as or even a little better than we expected, and doing exactly what we wanted, which is to contribute less to pollution and increase fuel mileage.”
Orion 7s are not being adopted by agencies with say the freq. of a PCC, but it sounds like folks are happy (if not quite glowing). Of course no one wants to own up to a $250 million boondoggie. It does make one wonder, whose hybrids are LA, DC and chicago going to be using?
"What I can't understand is why people in the back are worried about no windows. These vehicles automatically announce stops (when programmed correctly) and have a display that indicates where you are."
I haven't ridden one of the new buses, but on the old buses I always felt that the stop announcement was never very well implemented. It would only announce the next stop after it made a stop most of the time meaning that if someone didn't get off before my stop I'd never hear it. They also would often have issues where some stops would only be shown on the sign, while others would have a verbal announcement.
Maybe it's changed, but ideally the bus should announce the next stop both verbally and on the display every time it passes a stop whether someone gets off there or not.
Based on Muni's service record and the buses I've ridden before I'm willing to bet that, like you said, it will only work when programmed correctly, i.e. just about never.
Ah, Toronto Transit Commission, got my acronyms mixed up. Toronto got rid of their Orions about ten years ago.
http://groups.google.com/group/tor.general/msg/0f3fbf8492f3e3c6
That's significant because, as in the US, Canada heavily subsidizes buying locally made transit vehicles. Thus, seeing TTC buy a bunch of them isn't really anything to get excited about. It's sorta like why you see (or used to see) Gillig Phantoms in most Bay Area transit fleets. Pretty much everywhere else they're relegated to airport shuttle duty.
Boondoggle? Eh Check out the UC Davis / MUNI funded report about hybrid bus emissions.
http://www.sfmta.com/cms/rclean/images/cainit/davis.pdf
It'll be interesting to see how they hold up in New York. Keep in mind New York ordered a bunch of Flxible 870s (837 according to the Times), loved them, discovered that they weren't safe to operate, and then ordered a bunch of Flxible Metros (the 870's replacement) a few years later just before Flxible went under.
As for the stop announcements, when they're programmed correctly is mostly right. I stopped counting the number of times that the announcements didn't work on various buses... or when they've not programmed a route (LRV shuttle buses), etc, etc. MUNI can't even figure out how to get the headsigns working properly. Wishing for appropriate stop announcement is a bit much, IMO. What about folks who don't speak English? Or are hearing impaired? Then there's the matter of the timing. I've found the announcements are particularly useless on the 38. By the time I see/hear the announcement, the bus is almost past the stop.
I'd love to say "hey MUNI should have bought buses (hybrid or not) from XYZ". But, thanks to the buy American b.s., there are precious few choices left. Even fewer reasonable high floor choices (and, yes, I think low floor buses were a huge mistake).
Time will tell, I suppose.
Just letting everyone know I updated this post last night with observations from over the weekend. See above.