SFist: Thirtysomething

guest

Sun, 22 Jul 2007 03:29:20 -0800

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Stockton currently 4 lanes in this section (2 parking lanes and 2 driving lanes). What about designing Stockton to have 3 vehicular lanes, in order to slightly widen the sidewalks. Northbound, Stockton will be one lane for buses only. Southbound, Stockton will be two lanes -- the left lane restricted to trucks w local deliveries and buses, the right lane restricted to commercial loading and bus stops. [I.e. similar to the set-up for the Sansome contraflow bus/truck lane]. Regular car traffic would be prohibited from Stockton. Could this type of BRT work? Don't try to mix the deliveries with the pedestrians. The woonerf will not work in SF.

Greg

Thu, 19 Jul 2007 17:28:16 -0800

all this discussion is lovely but as Gavin Newsom said at the town hall meeting, they've made a decision and no matter how bad it is the ywill not consider any other options, period, end of story. they do not care if it will work, they do not care if it will reduce traffic, they are just hell bent on tunneling chinatown and business owners be damned. sorry, but that is how it goes in SF. you can vote on anything and everything EXCEPT who runs muni. brilliant.

guest

Thu, 19 Jul 2007 00:10:16 -0800

Paint the lanes on your own like how freeway lanes were painted by Kramer from Seinfeld.

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 17:12:30 -0800

Let's paint the bus lanes this weekend then figure out if we want the subway. That way we can use the bus lanes while we're debating and constructing (or not) the subway.

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:24:05 -0800

Ha! Nothing in Seattle works...

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:13:33 -0800

Also Muni's own consultant gave this project two thumbs down for being silly If we had to go tunnel I wish they would have considered a bus tunnel and scrapped the T third. a downtown bus tunnel could have served a number of bus lines and provided much flexibility I could envision one east west of Geary and one North South which could be have had a portal right south of market with an exit after North Beach. Outside of downtown moderately congested areas could have gotten BRT treatment Seattle has these and they work

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:13:33 -0800

jwb

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:10:58 -0800

The federal money is a non-factor. We shouldn't throw away hundreds of millions of dollars of city money and hundreds of millions of dollars of federal money just because it's available. If that were the only motivation we could plate Market Street in solid gold. If the federal money goes to a more effective project that should be considered a good thing, even if that more effective project is in another city.

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:06:52 -0800

Can the federal funds be used for BRT? From what I understand it needs to be used for the specific project proposed: central subway from SOMA to Chinatown, no more no less If so the question then becomes do you turn down federal money for project? Also if you don't build it that makes the T mistake even more glarring. A slow assed street car that goes nowhere not connected to the BRT. Nice Not that any of this is an argument in favor. Just pointing out that we already screwed up

ChinaNob

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:02:19 -0800

Dear MistahHM - Just because I think the central subway proposal is a waste of money and not needed does not make me a transit hating NIMBY. I ride transit every day. I am a strong supporter of transit. In fact, I'd like to see the Geary 38 replaced by a subway. I'd also like to see subway lines connecting downtown to Chinatown/Nob Hill/Russian Hill/Telegraph Hill/North Beach, Marina - i.e. a cross town subway. I just think the current project is a waste of time and money.

jwb

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:58:59 -0800

Look, I'm sorry, but the fact that the 30 and 45 are crammed does not imply that the Central Subway will be heavily used. It will have literally ONE STOP in Chinatown! That ONE STOP will be hundreds of feet underground. The alleged "transfer" at Powell will be a quarter-mile walk through a long corridor. Nobody who has actually studied this thing wants it. Earlier this year the city's own project auditor said it was a bad idea that would serve fewer people more slowly than the existing bus service. I know that's hard to believe but look at the T-Third: much more expensive than the 15-Third, much worse service.

ChinaNob

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:56:59 -0800

Lots of people go to AND from Chinatown. I know this because I LIVE in Chinatown. I go FROM my home IN Chinatown to Market Street every day to get the BART. Then, at the end of the day, every day, I go back to my home in CHINATOWN. Along the way, every day, I see my neighbors who, surprise, surprise, are busting into, out of, and around in Chinatown. I also see lots of non-tourist people coming to Chinatown to shop. These would be that large chunk of the San Francisco Asian-American community that doesn't actually live in Chinatown, but comes to Chinatown for shopping and services as its still the commercial hub/heart of San Francisco's Chinese community. Based on some of these comments, some days I really can't stand being white. Now, whether this next MUNI boondoogle is actually going to be worth it - that's another story. From the plans I've seen, currently, I'd say - Hell No. I'd rather see a MUNI Metro undergroundline built that goes from downtown under Geary all the way through Tenderloin and all the way out to the Richmond. Or as some have noted, a line connecting Chinatown/downtown to Nob Hill/Telegraph Hill/Russian Hill/North Beach/Marina.

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:51:17 -0800

The not-so-vaguely racist part is where you state (and I think you've said this about four times now,) "Nobody goes to Chinatown." People who live there go there daily, and there are a significant number of people who live there.

MistahHM

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:49:52 -0800

The Muni Metro subway works. BRT in such a congested, dense area does not work. The Csub will work. The CSub will be really fucking expensive, but you have to start somewhere. The age of huge-ass projects (like BART) is over. What we get is piecemeal, BUT if the piecemeal is planned well, then projects can be built to be integrated and expanded. The CSub is just the beginning dear friends. SF needs an honest to goodness subway system. With the exception of an ebola virus outbreak, the density will not be greately reduced. BRT is a patch that can work in less dense areas (like the Geary corridor), or areas like Curitiba that have been designed well to fit the needs of a BRT system. SF is not Curitiba. The mayor does not have the political power (or will) to pull something like that off. Transit preferential whut? Anyone who has spent anytime on the 30, 45, 9x, etc. knows that a Chinatown subway will be full. I think that the current costs of labor, materials and the overhead expenses (real or imagined) of contracting with the city are going to skyrocket the expenses. SFMTA needs to work to lower these design an effective system, but you can't pretend that it is not going to seem like a boondoggie. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Please realize that the SFMTA is unique in the fact that it is tied by the rules of the city. It is under the control of the Mayor and the Supes. Other transit agencies do not have the same arrangement and requirements, so it is not really comparing apples to apples when you look at costs per mile. These requirements bump up the costs of any SFMTA project. Those are the facts, yo. There is little to nothing that the unfortunately misinformed folk on this little blog can do to stop the momentum. NOTHING!... Evil Laughter Good luck trying though. Maybe you and your nimbyscratching, transit-hating ilk will delay the project for a few years, but you can't stop it. Its time is gonna come and it is going to work (we will see how well). I suggest that you waste not your time and money on comments, but instead attend those CSub meetings and give your feedback so that it will work better.

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:32:04 -0800

A lot of people who actually "live" in San Francisco live in Chinatown, which one of the most densely populated parts of the city. Actually that entire corner of the city, from Van Ness and Market eastward is very densely populated. Maybe they should build a subway to the top of Russian Hill or Telegraph Hill. Building a subway under Stockton Street that stops dead in the middle of Chinatown will hardly serve the needs of the people who live in North Beach, Telegraph Hill, Russian, Hill, or Nob Hill. If you imagine they will spend billions more American dollars to continue digging until they actually encounter one of those districts, you're deluding yourself. I don't have a strong opinion about the subway, but I find the repeated statement that "nobody goes to Chinatown," and the inference that people "who actually live in San Francisco," don't live or visit the northeast corner of the city downright inaccurate, provincial and vaguely racist. a.) Nobody goes to Chinatown. People pass through Chinatown, but they don't go there. Sorry. b.) I said that people who live here rarely go to Fisherman's Wharf. Last time I checked Fisherman's Wharf didn't include North Beach, Telegraph Hill, or Russian Hill. Perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension skills a bit, mmkay? c.) I never once raised issues of race and find it puzzling that you should do so here. Maybe you should analyze your own racial biases and ask why you think questioning a stupid project that will waste billions of American dollars to benefit few people is somehow "vaguely racist."

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:22:51 -0800

"Just another way to screw Chinatown and the Chinese" The whole central subway deal is political payola to Chinatown. If you don't like it talk to Rose Pak

SanFranCitizen

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:19:10 -0800

SFist - can we get rid of this light grey guest posting color? It's making my eyes hurt. What's the point - are guest comments less valid than others? Seems silly and makes things hard to read.

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:17:12 -0800

"I think it's safe to say that so few people who actually live in San Francisco make a regular habit of visiting our Middle American containment zone..." A lot of people who actually "live" in San Francisco live in Chinatown, which one of the most densely populated parts of the city. Google San Francisco population density map to get some idea. I don't have a strong opinion about the subway, but I find the repeated statement that "nobody goes to Chinatown," and the inference that people "who actually live in San Francisco," don't live or visit the northeast corner of the city downright inaccurate, provincial and vaguely racist.

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:08:06 -0800

Great! Just another way to screw Chinatown and the Chinese. First the collapse of the freeway drove out all the decent restaurants and 1/3 of the businesses and now this crap. Look what happened to NYC's Chinatown after 9/11 - closed for nearly a year while other parts of the downtown were pelted with stacks of benjies to "revitalize" their business. This is just another rotten idea disguised as progress to stick it to the Chinese. If the tunnel is dug, it'll cause massive delays and bottlenecks and even more businesses will close and I'm sure greedy developers are already eyeing this project and rubbing their bloodstain chubby fingers now that Rincon SOMA is well underway.

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:55:55 -0800

...yes, I go to Chinatown every day, as do many, many people. I think that's why we're discussing the issue of how to most effectively transport people to/from downtown to Chinatown and Fisherman's Wharf. I'm sorry, I've endured the 30 Stockton on numerous occasions and I think I can state with a fair degree of certainty that far from enough people go to Chinatown every single day to justify spending BILLIONS of American dollars on some retarded subway to nowhere that connects to nothing. Furthermore, I think it's safe to say that so few people who actually live in San Francisco make a regular habit of visiting our Middle American containment zone (i.e., Fisherman's Wharf)to warrant digging even further in that direction. I'd sooner see a subway dug straight down Geary Boulevard to 48th Avenue or the tunnel I suggested for South of Market than this silly, belated apology for tearing down the Embarcadero Freeway. At least those projects would serve people who actually live here and are in need of rapid transit.

mariconsoy

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:54:06 -0800

What about a castro-polk subway? It would connect to the market street tunnel at bloomingdales.

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:39:33 -0800

"Do YOU go to Chinatown" I do actually as I have a lot of Chinese friends but I think it is a good point to consider. For most of the city you ride down the market street subway, get off, walk a great distance in a tunnel to wait for the T to ride a few hundred yards to Chinatown? Or you could just get off at Montgomery and walk around. Not much different Or you ride in the market street subway and you want to go to Moscone center. So you get off at Powell walk in the tunnel to catch another train a few hunded more feet? What is the point of this thing?

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:35:57 -0800

"WHO? Do YOU go to Chinatown? Do you go SO often that it warrants digging a subway to Chinatown from, well, from nowhere? Don't be ridiculous." I still think you must be joking. Or you're Ashton Kutcher and I'm being "Punked." But to answer your question, yes, I go to Chinatown every day, as do many, many people. I think that's why we're discussing the issue of how to most effectively transport people to/from downtown to Chinatown and Fisherman's Wharf. I think if you'd like to investigate this further you may want to take a ride on the 30 Stockton to confirm for yourself that people, in fact DO go to Chinatown. It's astonishing, I know.

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:35:42 -0800

I am not convinced that BRT that isn't totally grade separated will work. I think for instance supporters of BRT on Geary east of Van Ness are fooling themselves What is the point of the central subway anyhow? If we must spend this money I would think a Kearny alingment though the FD and makes more sense

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:34:03 -0800

PS You know what's next: anybody who even questions, let alone dares to openly opposed, the Central Subway is obviously an anti-Asian racist. I mean, look how much this will benefit the community. (PB/Wong "joint" venture calling!) Just like anybody who was opposed to the idiot T-Third Street "light" rail was obviously an anti-black racist. I mean, look how much this benefited the community. (Hello Charlie Walker!)

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:26:17 -0800

Here's a zany idea: make Powell and Stockton one way.

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:25:16 -0800

If that's a joke I don't get it. I think you'll find that many people go to Chinatown. WHO? Do YOU go to Chinatown? Do you go SO often that it warrants digging a subway to Chinatown from, well, from nowhere? Don't be ridiculous. Making the cable cars fast pass only during commute hours would be great only robbing the fools who line up to ride the cable car (i.e., tourists) 5 American dollars a ride barely pays for the lines as it is. Cutting them off from one of the many rides they come here to enjoy would diminish funding for the line.

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:12:29 -0800

See, the point is for there to be more traffic, so that there is a disincentive to drive. Anybody who drives to Chinatown or North Beach and starts whining about the bad parking and traffic obviously has a serious problem making simple cause-and-effect connections. Here's an idea -- make the Powell and Market cable car line fast pass only during commute hours. Honestly, it's usually faster than the 30, and this would keep the tourists from hogging all the seats so residents could actually use it to get to work. Oh, and bring back the 15. The 20 is nearly pointless unless all you ever do is go to the BART and back. jacksonwest

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:08:52 -0800

"Who the hell goes to Chinatown?" If that's a joke I don't get it. I think you'll find that many people go to Chinatown.

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:57:34 -0800

I'm a manic rail advocate and the one and only rail project I oppose is this total joke of a subway. First of all, subway to Chinatown? Who the hell goes to Chinatown? More to the point, who goes from Hunter's Point to Chinatown? After all, the subway will just be an extension of the T. Second, the damned thing doesn't connect to the existing Market Street tunnel. Who builds subway lines that don't even connect to one another? I might have been persuaded to like this stupid project were it actually going to stop at Powell or Montgomery stations. Instead, it stops no where of any importance whatsoever! Union Square? Why take a train from the Castro to Powell Street and then walk underground to Union Square just to ride a train to Chinatown? This project is worthless. I think we need to draft a proposition calling for it to be banned outright. Nancy Pelosi must be some kinda mental retard if she'll secure funding for this abortion and do nothing to save an actual worthwhile project like the California High Speed Rail. What MUNI needs to do is start considering boring a tunnel parallel to Market Street, South of Market under like Folson Street. With all the development South of Market, it makes more sense to build adequate transit there than to dig a tunnel to Chinatown. Plus, they can move some of the trains out of the Market Street tunnel into a new SOMA tunnel, relieving congestion so people no longer have to stand there, contorted with their faces pressed against the greasy glass of an N-Judah car as the driver waits to move inside the tunnel.

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:52:57 -0800

From the plan: "Imagine the 68 feet wide Stockton Street...with no sidewalks and two BRT lanes.... This will leave about 23 feet on each side to be shared by shop keepers, pedestrians and/or an occasional merchant’s vehicle moving at a pedestrian pace." So, on a busy street that is always filled with pedestrians and delivery trucks, there will only be space for one or the other. Either people will have to fight their way around trucks or deliveries will have to made another way, and I doubt the merchants would ever support either option. And he doesn't even expect that this radical plan through Chinatown would lead to a savings of much more than three minutes. I agree that a subway will probably be very expensive, and may not seem all that useful as a standalone project. But the problem with this BRT plan is it doesn't make any sense.

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:47:54 -0800

I stopped reading when I got to "bus only lanes." There are bus only lanes all over the city, and they're a joke! I routinely miss the bus when waiting on third (the 30, specifically) because the entire bus-only lane is congested with automobiles and taxis, and the bus can't pull over so just keeps going. And in all my years as a ped/muni rider, I've never seen anyone pulled over or ticketed for riding in the bus-only lane.

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:17:56 -0800

It's hardly a one-man crusade. Anybody who's actually interested in improving transportation in San Francisco and who isn't on the take from the construction mafia (we're looking at you, Transportation Authority and Mayor's Office) knows that the Central Subway is an unmitigated disaster for the city and for the region, both economically and environmentally. But nobody with any interest in improving transportation is of the slightest relevance in this matter. In fact, people who even ask those questions find themselves withou jobs at Muni -- ask Bill Lieberman www.sfweekly.com/2007-01-03/news/porkmistress-pelosi/full ) Maximizing expense and minimizing utility (the latter so that the problem is never "solved", and so the cycle repeats) are the order of the day. I mean, it worked perfectly for the T-Third, right? We taxpayers got donate $640 million to Muni's special contractor friends, and in return we got far worse service that costs more to run. Mr Moscovich and company can only hope to build upon this success, but at far more than twice the price scale. (Central Subway is "officially" $1400 million for two miles, but you may recally the far less complex, no-tunnelling T-Third was sold to the suckers at $401.7 million but came in 60% higher. Funny, that!) So good luck to Howard Strassner and anybody else who gives a damn about living in San Francisco, but expect the usual abysmal, bald-faced and unashamedly cynical corruption of San Francisco to prevail. Worse service, costing more, for a billion and a half! It's guaranteed. Woo hoo! Enjoy the ride!

Greg

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:17:02 -0800

Do remember that the stockton tunnel was originally a trolley/rail only tunnel...cars came much much later....the Central Subway is a joke, it's been played around with on the margins for so long it's really not going to work as advertised....

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:15:18 -0800

Bad idea considering much of its Chinatown route is one lane with lots of delivery trucks that need to double park.

guest

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:06:51 -0800

Fuck busses, I want a fucking subway. I don't care if it doesn't go anywhere.