SFist: Octavia Boulevard update

LizardUnit2006

Wed, 19 Dec 2007 16:20:56 -0800

> Hey, let's rebuild the Fell St. offramp instead! Why are we proposing a rebuild of anything at all? That's transport money properly due the almighty car being diverted to those unseemly, unamerican, undesirable non-motor vehicles. Stop being silly! > An illegal set of these posts Bloddy right they're illegal! They impede the proper flow of motor vehicle traffic on the streets provided me by the laws of nature and nature's god for my driving pleasure. > keeping down the number of cars making illegal right turns Gawd only knows why anyone would wish to illegally oppress the automobile. It's common knowledge that the streets are for cars. Not busses. Not trolleys. Not cable cars. Cars. Everybody says so. > There already have been multiple car/bike accidents > involving cars illegally turning onto the onramp. It's the bikers' fault, obviously. They shouldn't have been there anyway. Got what they deserved. Serve 'em right. > There could be a retired cop car posted with a dummy inside Why not get some of those unamerican bikers who are depriving perfectly honest oil and auto companies of their just due payments. Not to mention the auto mechanics put out of work by the bikers callous indifference and selfishness. And don't even get me started about the poor, impoverished insurance companies being swindled out of the premiums necessary to continue this great land of ours! It's *tragic*, I tell you, TRAGIC that two or three whiners keep whining about their whiny little bikes. Boo-hooo-to-you-two-too! Get a horse!

college student who is fed up

Mon, 26 Mar 2007 06:53:10 -0800

This is so pointless! CITY OF SAN FRANCISCO! CAN YOU HEAR ME! God if any one knows where to send this to, copy and paste it i dont care: New York City has been working off of this FOR YEARS! Have the Pedestrian right of way signal as well as the bike signal (WHICH EXISTS!) start roughly the amount of time it takes for all persons to get accross. Durring that time ALL CAR SIGNALS will be RED. After that, take the car signal and make it turn green WHILST turning the bike and ped signals to red. jesus its like people live in a hole here or something

cfc

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:17:18 -0800

I agree with Carl: people coming down market want to get on the freeway) why can't city engineers figure out a way to allow cars to make a right AND provide bicycle safety? and I agree with aj: when a design is counterintuitive, people will try to work around it. All discussion of how evil and awful those auto drivers are is entirely irrelevant! I wonder if ultimately another solution will be required, for example a special bikes only traffic signal. Think about it: How many of YOU have seen little dirt paths in lawns, making a muddy little shortcut because the stupid landscape designers designed a path that takes folks the long way 'round to get to the door of whatever institution they are visiting? Human instinct is to take the obvious path, whether on foot, bike or car. Folks often don't even really see the signage if the instinctual path is extremely dominant, as it is in this case. I'm just surprised more people haven't been killed on any of these Octavia-related streets. Lots of bad and confusing visual and architectural cues all over the place.

Holly

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:38:21 -0800

I use the Octavia on-ramp every weekday, and I see people make that illegal right turn almost every time I use it. They aren't going to stop until something permanent is put in that will actually damage their cars if they make the turn. Replacing those laughable little poles with a big concrete curb, or big concrete pillars, or something like that, would be a decent solution, as would better traffic enforcement.

Carl

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:44:52 -0800

since drivers need to make a right (people coming down market want to get on the freeway) why can't city engineers figure out a way to allow cars to make a right AND provide bicycle safety? a red light for cyclists/pedistrians combined with a green/red arrow for cars would work. do cycle-nistas not comprehend that people want to get on the highway from market st.? to me its silly - lets build this huge on-ramp, but then not allow access from one of hte major arteries of the city. -carl

Mark Ballew

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:25:51 -0800

I hope the city decides to put in a curb and large concrete posts there, much like on some of the pedestrian islands further down market. The Octavia freeway entrance should be landscaped similar to the boulevard itself, not with these ugly white temporary barriers. For the car drivers out there, the reason why it is a no-right zone is because the amount of cars and the amount of people who cross that area is very high. Banning right turns keeps people from getting hurt when drivers aren't careful making a right turn on red, which is likely when tens of thousands of motorists want turn there during rush hour. You wouldn't want to be the one who murders a cyclist or pedestrian on mistake, would you? Nor would you want to see that or be that unlucky pedestrian!

Phil

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:13:08 -0800

There's still a big flashing orange highway sign that says "No right turn at freeway" in giant yellow letters, and from what I can remember, three posted no right turn signs. Plus, wouldn't the presence of those white posts make you think you wouldn't want to drive your car over them? I think the problem is drivers will just do what they think they can get away with without regard to any rationale for not doing it, or any posted signs.

Celeste

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:19:04 -0800

I think the signage is a big part of the problem. The sign is too far to the right - you don't see it until you possibly have already started trying to turn. It's so ingrained as a driver to be able to turn right that it needs to be posted much more prominently, closer to the lane, and before the intersection. Perhaps this has been improved recently but when I was driving down Market Street a few weeks ago I noticed how unobtrusive the signage was. Not that I have turned right at this intersection, but I can definitely see a regular driver (i.e. not one who is intentionally breaking the law and endangering others) making this mistake.

Phil

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:50:42 -0800

"Put the responsibility on those who would be hurt?" Sorry, but the problem is that I can be the most reponsible bike rider on the road, and still get crushed by a car who decides, oh, sorry, I really needed to make that turn and didn't see you. Cars go a lot faster than bikes, you know, and trying to get out of the way of one that's bearing down on you doesn't leave a lot of room for careful calculation. Why is it that everyone wants to defend the "right" of cars to make right turns when it's clearly posted that it's not allowed - is this simply might makes right, let the cars do it because they're going to anyway? How about assigning reponsibility to those who could seriously hurt other people by being careless, thoughtless, or doing something that is clearly against the posted rules?

aj

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:48:45 -0800

They seem to have improved the signs somewhat, so that is better. However this does bring back fond memories of the planning in which many optimistic souls said that oh yes, everyone will follow the no right turn sign, and it will all be flowers and happiness. What well-meaning city planners often forget is that when a design is counterintuitive, people will try to work around it. All discussion of how evil and awful those auto drivers are is entirely irrelevant! I wonder if ultimately another solution will be required, for example a special bikes only traffic signal. Of course if they had tunnelled under Market Street up to Page, this would have been solved, but at a much greater cost.

Happy Chandler

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:36:05 -0800

Alameda has some intersections on Park St that have no left turn during commute hours, and they installed flashing lights saying "No Left Turn" that turn on during those times. That seems like a good idea. It definately isn't 100%...I've seen many drivers make the illegal left, but at least they can't clame ignorance. The retractable bollards make for funny video, but do we really want a traffic jam every time someone wrecks their car trying to beat them? The most dangerous time for bikes is gridlock. There could be a retired cop car posted with a dummy inside -- people wouldn't know if it were a real cop or not. Some days, replace the dummy with an actual cop. A rumble strip posted the entire length of the intersection would have the dual purpose of making the right turn more unpleasant and slowing drivers busting up Octavia to beat the red. I'm not sure what it would do to a backup on Octavia. The other alternative is to have a right turn light, have it red when cars can go straight and allow right turns onto the highway when bikes are not passing through. Have a sign "Bicycles do not cross when green arrow is on." Put the responsibility on those who would be hurt.

bob

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:11:58 -0800

I haven't been by there in a couple of weeks, but last time I rode or drove by (yup, I have a car and a bike and take both down Market), the sign posting for the freeway was tiny. The platic posts, in theory, should work. They were placed there most likely because they are cheap, easy to install, and don't require the usual everyone-in-SF-has-to-have-a-say-in-everything approval. Concrete would probably deter a few more drivers. Unfortunately, there will always be a few assholes who feel that it is there god-give right (not privelege) to take a right hand turn there. Maybe they need to install one of those big-brother cameras that they have for dumbasses who run red lights. Oh wait, the civil libertarians would complain that the city has no right to "spy" on their illegal actions.

Happy Chandler

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:34:29 -0800

There's no "On Red" in the picture. There is no right turn, period, ever. There already have been multiple car/bike accidents involving cars illegally turning onto the onramp. DON'T DO IT! It's illegal and unsafe, red light or green light!

bluecanary

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:33:35 -0800

Drivers who don't care if they hit pedestrians/bicyclists surely don't care if they hit a little plastic wiffle ball bat. Make those posts concrete. This is ridiculous. The engineers who designed this road should be forced to ride a bike every day until they, too, are inevitably hit by a car.

Phil

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:30:36 -0800

I ride this route every day to work, and I can say that they are effective in keeping down the number of cars making illegal right turns - I haven't seen any do it for a while now. And I haven't seen anybody get hit or nearly hit for a while now, either. And for all the people down on bikers, let's see you get on a bike and have to contend with city drivers every day. I've never seen anyone on a bike run this light, but I have seen plenty of cars make illegal and stupid manuevers, which mostly means I have to ride like crazy to keep from being killed.

mushmouth

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 07:34:29 -0800

One thing that the photo shows is that the bike lane ends at the next block

bikescape

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 06:46:13 -0800

Why no right turn? Here's the obvious reason why. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhMoE2flLqg One solution might be retractable bollards such as these- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEbmJi3ROKk I posted a podcast of the demo last month on Bikescape. http://bikescape.blogspot.com/search?q=right+is+wrong

carl

Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:19:09 -0800

why is there no turn on red? how about a right hand only arrow traffic light, that way cyclists know to stop so cars can turn right. oh thats right, cyclists dont pay attention to traffic lights. -carl

morph

Tue, 13 Mar 2007 22:30:49 -0800

The more you drive, the stupider you are.

murphstahoe

Tue, 13 Mar 2007 22:11:36 -0800

I have pictures in my camera phone of the far more effective/daunting version of these posts at Skyridge and Skyline above San Bruno. An illegal set of these posts - I might add - that endanger cyclists greatly. I just have to figure out how to get the photos from my phone to web...

Jerry Jarvis

Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:53:56 -0800

Tire spikes.

Clbarrientos

Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:25:26 -0800

why are these plastic toothpicks there anyway? I understand 'no turn on red' but this is a freeway entrance.

no one

Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:04:22 -0800

Hey, let's rebuild the Fell St. offramp instead! After another vote, of course...