Now that the T-Third is up and running, we can all start focusing on the next big MUNI project, the central subway. This is a proposed underground that would go from near the ballpark to Chinatown. After Pelosi was able to secure us funding for it, everything seemed honky dory. But not so fast-- problems have been raised. We'll give you three guess as to what sort of problem came up: a Cannibalistic Humanoid Underground Dweller? A protest by the San Franciscans for Mole People (actually, they prefer the term Surface Challenged)? Brutal mob war shutting down the labor unions? Nope, you're wrong. The correct answer would be money. There's problems over money.
You can pretty much see where this is going, cant you? Basically, it's going to cost a sh--load of money to build and nobody is quite sure it's necessary. Supporters say it'll ease congestion. Opponents say it's not really needed and just a huge boondoggle, thank you very much. The government had committed $762 million to the project but yesterday decided to add some strings to it, mainly that we need to speed things up or lose the funding. The main problem the Feds are seeing is that Muni hasn't really put together any sort of set plan. They even set a deadline, that of September 30 and what they're looking for is more in the way of financing and cost estimates.
The project is estimated to cost about $1.4 billion dollars. If it's a success, they hope to extend it into North Beach and Fisherman's Wharf. Of course, it would also help if it connected to anything.
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Hmm, "ease congestion," is it? I'm not sure I buy that. How many car trips in SF involve a drive from SOMA to Chinatown? Are people really getting in their cars to drive from Union Square to the Metreon? I usually love subways, but I can think of better places in SF to use millions of dollars to relieve congestion: Van Ness, Geary, Irving, the Panhandle, Columbus, Market -- these are all places where there's too many cars and mass transit has to stop and wait.
We can only hope that people come to their sense and see this project for what it is: A huge WASTE of money who's origins were political in nature, not rooted in public transit needs.
God, that is a huuge amount of money. It would be soo much better to use it on a Geary subway or a Van Ness subway or a non-subway project that would make MUNI a more efficient experience. Who needs a subway that only goes a mile wouldn't be used by hardly anyone??
"hardly anyone"? I sense MuniRider has not been a passenger on the buses going through Chinatown.
The subway won't serve the area as well as the bus. You may notice that it has only 2 stops north of Market. The 30/15 bus line stops on every block of Stockton north of California, and 3 stops south of California. You may have seen some of the frail old people who ride that corridor. Do you think they would rather go up and down station platforms and walk many blocks to their destination? Or do you think they prefer to ride the bus to within a half block?
One problem with the funding, as I understand it, is this money can only be used for the central subway and only as it was defined when submitted as a project to the Feds
We can't now say we would like the money but would rather use it on Geary or even that we would like to have the subway continue onward to North Beach
Seems to me a street car line that went closer to the new development in Rincon and the Transbay and ran on Kearny (maybe in a subway) therby serving the FD would make more sense but since when does sense matter with transit planning in SF
The way I understand it, the Feds are good for about $700 million of the project's $1.5 billion. We're the ones who are going to have to cover the rest of the bill, so while the Federal funds would go to other, more useful projects, that's about $800 million we won't be spending on the Central Subway and can go to other local projects (like that nifty new Transbay Terminal)
And secondly, the bus service today leaves a lot of room for improvement. For the elderly, low floor busses would make getting on and off a lot easier and faster. Low floor busses make boarding faster for everyone. A 30, or maybe 30 Limited, off the wires which can pass bunched or broken trolley busses may be a useful addition. The 9X is also going to full time service as well, with extensions to City College and the Wharves and already being an express bus, it could also be beefed up to help take the load.
Any bus improvement also does something the Central Subway doesn't, serves North Beach. And no, a North Beach station cannot be added to the Central Subway without starting the Federal grant process over again. It would have to be a separate project.
I didn't know it was for congestion. I thought the central subway was to connect downtown to those new developments near China Basin. I am so out of the loop.
I agree that the central subway idea is stupid, and that there ought to be something that connects the Richmond to downtown. We all know the 38 sucks big hairy toe. Get the legislators to re-write the damn thing if necessary so that we get something that is actually useful and worth the crazy tear-up that this kind of project involves.
count me in as one against this appalling boondoggle/makework/makerich project.
no, matter how much congestion there is between SOMA, through Union Sq. area and up to Chinatown, there must be loads of ways to spend $800m to solve this problem.
E.g., just doing a back envelope calculation, that could be about 400 brand new buses, with $600 mil left over to reconfigure streets for busways, both north/south and east/west.
The Central Subway was a political deal, not a transit project, in order to get agreement from the Chinatown Merchants to remove seismically unsafe (and hideous) Embarcadero Freeway. They were concerned, and it's understandable, they would loose business without people being able to easily drive to Chinatown. Of course, parking would be more of a limiting factor.
Another reason given was, combined with the surface Third Street light rail, it would connect Chinatown with the Chinese-American population in Visitacion Valley.
While that sounds nice and seems like a good idea, it gets back to what Jeffrey wrote about the convenience of busses over a subway. In this case, the 9X runs through the Visitacion Valley (not along the edge of it) and then uses the freeway to reach downtown and into Chinatown instead of the T-Third Street's much slower local service that will have 22 stops and a running time around 45 minutes. Nothing against the T-Third Street here, it should prove a worthwhile investment, it's just not an express bus to Chinatown.
On the one hand, I feel that if we are going to build further subway tunnels anywhere in San Francisco, this is one of the places to do it (though of course I would put inner Geary at the top of the list). This area has a dense population, and quite frankly, the 30/45 buses don't cut out. Buses undeniably are more convenient for close and easy access to destination, but ideally we would have a combination of rapid transit (that involves more walking) and buses (slower, but less walking). We absolutely cannot ignore the elderly and disabled in transit planning, but I feel as though the able-bodied should not be ignored either. At the moment, it is usually faster to walk than to take a bus in the Chinatown section of this corridor. True, Chinatown is just one part of the corridor, but this also messes up reliability on the rest of the line. So there is definitely a case for having a subway line go through area in some way or another.
However, the increasing cost and decreasing of proposed service of the Central Subway is ridiculous. Spending this much money for just a few additional stations (TINY stations, at that), in a way that doesn't truly serve the corridor, is nonsense. There are too many "just misses" here. It "just misses" the Rincon Hill area, which in 20 years will have a Manhattan-level population density. It "just misses" having a clean, easy transfer to the Market Street subway. And really, this subway needs to continue to North Beach and beyond (preferably west to additional neighborhoods, rather than to just Fisherman's Wharf). I know the reasons why this cannot happen given the current funding situation, but it's just one more reason why this project needs to be completely rethought.
In case you missed it, Matt Smith from the SF Weekly wrote an interesting article on the Central Subway. Anyone know where I can get a copy of the study written by Tom Matoff?
I think everyone isn't thinking very long term here. The first segment will be the segment you see here but it will be extended at some point into North Beach and the West to the Marina. These areas need a good rail connection to downtown as now they are slaves to traffic. Long term its a good start. We all need to stop the have it now attitude.
The Central Subway could make an extension less likely because the cost of operation will sink the SFMTA further into debt. For that reason capitol funding from the MTC and Federal Government becomes less like.
And since it's projected $1.4-1.5 billion price tag and the usual cost overruns will take funding away from other projects, I think we'd see a lot of campaigning against any additional tax or bond to fund an extension by the neighborhoods which would see their project cut.
The Marina, would also likely be opposed to any subway, or more likely surface, extension because if they won't even allow the extended 60' busses in their neighborhood the disruption of rail construction would probably create a revolt.
The Central Subway could make an extension less likely because the cost of operation will sink the SFMTA further into debt. For that reason capitol funding from the MTC and Federal Government becomes less like.
And since it's projected $1.4-1.5 billion price tag and the usual cost overruns will take funding away from other projects, I think we'd see a lot of campaigning against any additional tax or bond to fund an extension by the neighborhoods which would see their project cut.
The Marina, would also likely be opposed to any subway, or more likely surface, extension because if they won't even allow the extended 60' busses in their neighborhood the disruption of rail construction would probably create a revolt.
The Central Subway could make an extension less likely because the cost of operation will sink the SFMTA further into debt. For that reason capitol funding from the MTC and Federal Government becomes less like.
And since it's projected $1.4-1.5 billion price tag and the usual cost overruns will take funding away from other projects, I think we'd see a lot of campaigning against any additional tax or bond to fund an extension by the neighborhoods which would see their project cut.
The Marina, would also likely be opposed to any subway, or more likely surface, extension because if they won't even allow the extended 60' busses in their neighborhood the disruption of rail construction would probably create a revolt.
The Central Subway could make an extension less likely because the cost of operation will sink the SFMTA further into debt. For that reason capitol funding from the MTC and Federal Government becomes less like.
And since it's projected $1.4-1.5 billion price tag and the usual cost overruns will take funding away from other projects, I think we'd see a lot of campaigning against any additional tax or bond to fund an extension by the neighborhoods which would see their project cut.
The Marina, would also likely be opposed to any subway, or more likely surface, extension because if they won't even allow the extended 60' busses in their neighborhood the disruption of rail construction would probably create a revolt.