January 16, 2007
Review: Comedy Death-Ray at SketchFest
SFist was excited to hit SketchFest’s Comedy Death-Ray act last night at Cobb’s. The line up (full of Mr. Show and I LOVE the ‘80’s alumns) looked promising. After the usher told us to give him $10 we landed front row seats. Which served us well for the surprise stars of the night, Paul F. Tompkins—who had by far the strongest set of the night. Seriously, give that guy his own TV show! The other notable act was the vocal stylings of Hard ‘n Phirm, who ended the night with their rendition of a Latin power love ballad, which brought down the house, and which SFist is secretly hoping someone will sing to us this Valentine’s Day.
SFist, like most of the crowd, were there to see David Cross, and able openers only served to increase our anticipation for his set. Cross's work on Mr. Show and Arrested Development are some of the funniest in contemporary comedy. Sadly, SFist was really disappointed (appalled might be the better word) by David Cross's routine. In addition to getting the smallest laughs from the crowd, it was the most blatant public display of bigotry we've witnessed in person. It's difficult to define the difference between making fun of something and attacking it. It’s a fine line, but many comics get it right: the greatest cultural and religious satire takes the beliefs held by a group of people and spins it to show the comedy inherent in those beliefs.
For example, South Park has covered the very same ground in terms of joking about Mormons by going through the Joseph Smith story (which was what Cross went through as well). South Park explicates the story to hilarious (and irreverent) effect by making it into a musical, complete with ditties about translating golden plates, angels appearing, and the plates conveniently disappearing whenever outside sources ask for evidence. Cross, on the other hand, simply laid out the story of the religion’s foundation, and at the end of major points essentially said, "Isn't that dumb?" "Can you believe how stupid these Mormons are?" Baddum-chee! Get the joke? We didn't. Showing why something is ridiculous is comedy, telling you it's dumb is more of a soap-box lecture. People at the club paid for comedy, not a lesson in religious beliefs punctuated with statements like "how dumb is that?" The let down here is that SFist, like a lot of fans there, were hoping for the type of awkward comedy Cross does best, not the kind of bit you'd expect from a talk radio show host.
It was surprising and a little confusing that a comedian of Cross's stature and talent would spend so much time on pure vitriol. Cross seemed to deflate some of the exuberance of the evening (which was buoyed by a strictly-enforced two-drink minimum), and the lag showed with paltry applause. Moreover, his bit seemed derivative of recent attacks on Mitt Romney's candidacy that have appeared in Slate and elsewhere, and which are based not on his political record so much as on his Mormonism (which is the way Cross began his piece). The difference is that the Slate authors weren't trying to be funny. Any religion, plus political aspirations on the part of one of its adherents, could equal pure comedic gold, given a proper witty treatment. Sadly, Cross fell short of the task he set himself. Cross ended his piece with "Mormons are F***ing idiots", not one of the more socially tolerant statements we've ever heard. But hey, maybe nobody told him it was Martin Luther King Day.
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Dear Emily,
I just read your review and I would like to address a number of things that I find to be either disingenuous or just plain wrong (sometimes mildly irresponsible, and other times so wrong it borders on libel). I won’t get into who had what kind of set and argue about quantifying laughs and then the quality of said laughs but I take great issue with your calling me a bigot. You call me a bigot and then fail to represent truthfully not only what I said, but ignored the context in which I said it. Two very important tools in comedy. And keep in mind that the set was taped. I have it all on tape. Every word, every laugh, every pause, every quiet moment. Everything. And Emily, if that was “the most blatant display of bigotry you’ve ever witnessed in person”, then you have lived a charmed life for sure. I think you are being hyperbolic and overdramatic to say the least. While it’s true that I made fun of Mormons and their beliefs, you completely ignored the context in which I did it. The ENTIRE premise of the piece was first prefaced (and this lasted over a minute) by saying that, should I ever choose to run for any kind of office, that, no matter how many good ideas I might have to improve the quality of everyone’s life or implement a universal health care plan etc, that I could never get elected because I am an atheist. For the simple fact that I don’t believe in God most people wouldn’t vote for me. I then brought up that Mitt Romney, a Mormon, had just announced his candidacy. I then explained that a lot of pundits thought that his prior stance in support of gay marriage might turn voters away. Then I said, “so his support of equal rights for all Americans would be the thing that made people suspicious of him, not his belief that…”and here is where I described the story of Joseph Smith along with side commentary about the angles names sounding like they were members of Sha-Na-Na, and comments about the Freemasons etc.
I appreciate your pointing out that there is a difference between making fun of something and attacking it, and that scientists have discovered a fine line between the two, but when you go on to say, “the greatest cultural and religious satire takes the beliefs held by a group of people and spins it to show the comedy inherent in those beliefs.” You imply that I didn’t “spin” it or “show” it. I disagree with you and my tape of the set and the laughs that I was receiving are evidence that the audience (minus some of course) disagreed with you as well. I can’t (nor should I ever) assume that the each audience I ever do that bit in front of is familiar with either, the South Park episode, the Slate article about Romney being Mormon (which I am not familiar with but I would imagine any good journalist might find it to be an interesting subject), or even the basic tenants and history of Mormonism itself. And looking over your review I notice that I did in fact mention everything you cite as being so integral to the South Park episode. To represent on this web site that bit the way you do is damaging if not worse. Emily, you can’t simply reduce everything I said, and it’s obvious (to most, at least) intent to merely being a vitriolic, bigoted soap-box lecture wherein I just say, “This is what Mormons believe, aren’t they fucking idiots?”. That is being either purposefully dishonest or at the very least, lazy and irresponsible. In addition, your numerous references to how poorly I was received seem put in there to bolster your position. This just wasn’t the case. Again, the set and entire evening were taped. I have the proof on tape. You have your clearly biased memory of events, which do not match reality.
Having said all that, I do think it’s astoundingly stupid and lazy to believe in Mormonism given it and it’s founder’s history.
I do agree with you though that Paul F. Tompkins had the strongest set of the night.
Love,
David Cross
David, after a somewhat disjointed defense of your position (which you had to make, of course--I mean, who can stand by while being called a bigot?), you prove the critique's point with your parting shot--suggesting that all Mormons must be lazy minded to hold their particular set of beliefs. That's bigotry at its core.
Hey, did anyone bring their camera phone to the show? Let's put this blatent bigotry on the you tubes and myspace dot coms! I bet you could make a mash up then spread it through the world wide web in a viral fashion.
I thought Mr. David Cross was genius and was very very pleasantly surprised by Paul F. Tompkins set as well. I think Cross got the strongest response from the audience too. And Hard and Firm or whatever were kinda lame.
I've gotta say, this would've surprised me a few years ago, but after that stupid, interminable "feud" Cross attempted to perpetrate on Larry the Cable Guy, I'm not--not by what Emily describes, nor by Cross's childish, interminable response. (how about: "Sorry you didn't like the show--some of my best friends are Mormon and they make just the best muffins. xoxo, dc") David--why all the bitterness?
"t's difficult to define the difference between making fun of something and attacking it. It’s a fine line, but many comics get it right: the greatest cultural and religious satire takes the beliefs held by a group of people and spins it to show the comedy inherent in those beliefs."
obiviously critical reviews are not quite your cup of tea. stick to what you do best, whatever that is.
hey, david, meet you "where the kids drink."
great set, by the way.
go jokes.
Wow, I wish MY blog posts provoked celebrities to scold me.
Wow, just as I was about to leave a comment about that ricoculous review, what do I find but one left by none other than Mr. Cross himself. And here I thought the intarwebs were too vast to be at all effective in disseminating valuable ideas. I mean, they're probably still ineffective at inspiring thought, but at least it's an ass-load of ineffectuality. Anywho, just wanted to say that this is the type of commentary that gets people in San Francisco pigeon-holed. I hate this type of circumlocutionary judgement. If you find it acceptable to mock a religion in musical form, then what makes it unacceptable to mock it in a succinct sentence? Is the mockery deemed tolerable in your twisted neo-liberal mind only if it seems like you don't actually feel that way about it, but were just being "silly"? If you actually think the religion is ridiculous, why be coy? I'm not afraid to say I think most religions are absurd, and I find that an easy thought to think because I know that most of the followers of those religions believe I'm going to hell for being an atheist--and they haven't even heard any of my awesome theories! The most ridiculous thing about our society, in my mind, is the fact that we allow ourselves to be offended. But I guess that's in the same vein for my reasoning for most religion being ridiculous. I just don't see how anyone can take themselves so seriously. And that is why America and SF, in particular, is hella gay.
Wow, just as I was about to leave a comment about that ricoculous review, what do I find but one left by none other than Mr. Cross himself. And here I thought the intarwebs were too vast to be at all effective in disseminating valuable ideas. I mean, they're probably still ineffective at inspiring thought, but at least it's an ass-load of ineffectuality. Anywho, just wanted to say that this is the type of commentary that gets people in San Francisco pigeon-holed. I hate this type of circumlocutionary judgement. If you find it acceptable to mock a religion in musical form, then what makes it unacceptable to mock it in a succinct sentence? Is the mockery deemed tolerable in your twisted neo-liberal mind only if it seems like you don't actually feel that way about it, but were just being "silly"? If you actually think the religion is ridiculous, why be coy? I'm not afraid to say I think most religions are absurd, and I find that an easy thought to think because I know that most of the followers of those religions believe I'm going to hell for being an atheist--and they haven't even heard any of my awesome theories! The most ridiculous thing about our society, in my mind, is the fact that we allow ourselves to be offended. But I guess that's in the same vein for my reasoning for most religion being ridiculous. I just don't see how anyone can take themselves so seriously. And that is why America and SF, in particular, is hella gay.
Mormonism *is* jaw-droppingly ridiculous, though. you-have-got-to-be-kidding-me ridiculous.
I wasn't there to see David Cross act, so I can't really comment on it. But I can tell you something about the South Park episode, which Emily remembered wrong. She says:
In fact, none of the characters break into song. There is a song with the narrative but it merely explicates some of what's going on. There's no exaggeration going on at all.Most of the time, after they state some thing like "many people believed Joseph Smith" or "Joseph Smith was called a Prophet", the chorus will say "dum dum dum dum dum." I repeat:
"dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb"
So, though I can't really say much about Cross' act, South Park really didn't say do much different except set it to music. Here's some links with the bits:
Joesph Smith was called a Prophet - dum dum dum dum dum
Many People believed Joseph - dum dum dum dum dum
And that's how the Book of Mormon was written dum dum dum dum dum
Though I didn't see Cross' act I wouldn't be too afraid to put forward that to both South Park and his ears that the Mormon story sounds ridiculous enough that they don't see the need for much exaggeration. I don't think that bigotry - that's a comic choice. One that's worked great for you and one that's failed.
I also think it's ridiculous to be called a Bigot for saying something is stupid. Then we're all bigots of something. And some things are stupid. And we should be able to say that they are. Otherwise, we're bigoted to Scientology. Or Jim Jones. Or David Koresh. Or Warren Jeffs. Or... do I need to go on?
Methinks the comedian doth protest too much.
You're right though, DC, those Mormons are weird. Most of us don't understand what they believe or why they believe it. And it bugs us. Hey! I know! Why don't we round them up, throw them into water and see if they float?
I've spoken with a several people who were there, and all of them reported to me that DC was very well received. I think you might have been surprised at the extent of the polemic in his act, but if you were expecting something else... that's been what David's been up to, comedy-wise, for quite a long time. I think your reaction maybe had more to do with your expectations than anything else. Cross has never done "awkward comedy," at least as far as I know.
I'll bet a tin of Mormon muffins that Emily has never heard nor seen DC's stand up before- not ever.
What the hell is "awkward comedy"?
From what I've been able to gather, David Cross never lied about anything and you did. It's pretty clear now that the show was not even close to the crickets and silence you first described, but was actually very well received.
Using a platform like you have to try and alter history is also a form of bigotry and hate speech. You might at least try to pretend SFist has some sort of credibility and reputation to uphold.
jeez SFist, pull your head out of your ass.
I agree with Jesse Thorn.
Anyone want to hear my mormon pickup line joke?
Here it is:
Mormon Pick-up Line:
"I'm not wearing any special undergarments."
Thanks! I'll never be here again all week! David Cross rules!
I'm sure you have it all on tape, and I'm sure we could get out the "laugh-o-meter" to see who REALLY got the most laughs and whether DC was truly well-received or not. Pointless. What's not pointless is what seems to be an objective (clearly Emily is a fan and went into the night expecting a good performance) review of a show that lacked DC's usual comedic genius and, in truth, provided an illustrative example of webster's definition of "bigot": a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance. Of course, you have the right (?) to be a bigot or to act bigoted, but- Wow, substitute "Jewish" or "Muslim" into some of those comments, and you've landed yourself a front-page spot on CNN, DC.
So it's not the best-written review ever. Still, don't you realize how pathetic this looks, Mr. Cross?
Or are you doing a "thin-skinned comic" character? Hey, that's actually funny. I take it back.
I hope you sue.
I know this might fly against -ist policy, but they might consider getting people who know what they are talking about to write about events.
And no deep knowledge is needed. Just be able to be at an event and actually report on what is actually happening.
I like to call that skill: Reporting™.
Bigot: a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
"I do think it’s astoundingly stupid and lazy to believe in Mormonism given it and it’s founder’s history." -Michael Cross
I wasn't at the show, but Cross's parting shot sounds an awful lot like bigotry--and here he's not joking. It's not fashionable to defend religious freedom, but whether it's Cross's comments or Michael Richards, it's all intolerance to me.
I would strongly suggest that SFist and the whole -ist empire starting thinking about what the concept of reporting is. And how they need to stick to this crazy thing called "facts" when reporting on something.
Cross is smarter than all of you.
He couldn't have bought this kind of viral advertising.
Just like Kaufman. An avant-garde comic - did a TV show he never was thrilled with - now avant-garde and controversial again. And more popular.
Well done, DC.
Are you trying to say there is no heaven's chimney, and there is no razzleberry waterfall? Bigots!
And I don't know who "Michael Cross" is, but what the hey, he rules too!
It's a REVIEW. Not a reuters account of some natural disaster. She's allowed to publish opinions.
You're missing the point. Jewish and Muslim beliefs aren't predicated on a patently ridiculous story. Was what DC said an example of bigotry? Maybe. But then again most comedy is if you think about it that way. One need look no further than the Book of Mormon to find an example of real-world bigotry, wherein anyone having brown skin is being punished by God for being evil, and is less human than their white counterparts. Not to mention their horrendous treatment of women, and the institution of polygamy. I reserve little sympathy for anyone whose religion has been a bastion of intolerance and insanity since its inception.
That's not bigotry... that's just a difference of opinion. DC is not wishing harm on anyone for believing in Mormonism. He is not asking it to be outlawed He doesn't ask Mormons to believe what he believes. He merely states that he sees reason why it would be hard for a rational human being to follow it.
It's hardly even inflammatory. People say the same things about Scientology, or Wicca, or certain tenets of Christianity/Judaism (see the aforementioned "officially funny" South Park for examples of all).
The heart of observational comedy is in pointing out the lunacy in everyday things. When we are afraid to broach a particular topic for fear of offending, then "edgy" is being confused for bigotry.
Emily, a couple of friendly pieces of advice.
-be sure to avoid George Carlin's act whenever he's in town.
-don't ever, ever watch "Chappelle's Show".
Yikes, chill out! You act like this is the first time a religious group has ever been the butt of a joke. San Fran-fucking-cisco?! West coast! Aren't you supposed to be laid back? Enough with the knee-jerk reactions and read up. Delve into the history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and form an opinion for yourself or collective selves. Similarly, listen to David Cross's stand up. The LDS Church has heard all this before just the same way the Evangelical movement has heard all this before just the same way that the Pentacostals got hosed by Borat. As for David Cross, Li Pug hit it square on; viral advertising. Genius. Why be so concerned with David Cross being a bigot? He's an entertainer. Get concerned when an elected official makes a statement along the lines of, "I do think it’s astoundingly stupid and lazy to believe in Mormonism given it and it’s founder’s history." As for "utterly intolerant" stop with your scolding. Utterly intolerant is acting in a malicious manner that viably threatens the majority of members subscribing to a minority belief. Tell me three Mormons you know who have lost their jobs, been physically threatened, or have suffered undue mental anguish as a result of David Cross's bit? Are you this angry about 21,500 soldiers about to be deployed to Iraq? Pick your battles.
This reminds me why I hate the -ist websites. So many dour and humorless children masquerading as journalists. Just because you suffer from comic dermographia doesn't mean he's a bigot. Strong words to throw around.
Way to drop the MLK reference, too. HIGH GROUND.
Just sayin' wrote:
"You're missing the point. Jewish and Muslim beliefs aren't predicated on a patently ridiculous story. " Are you kidding me? Do you know how similar the stories of Islam and Mormonism are? Muhammed and Joseph Smith are in some ways, parallel figures.
Anyway, I did miss an important point- the point is not whether DC is a bigot or whether it's nice or not nice to make fun of Mormons. Rather, the point is: the reviewer thought it wasn't funny. And she said so. She thought the SOuthPark episode making fun of mormons was funny. So, really we're all off on a tangent. We're talking about his content and not his delivery.
I was at the show. While it wasn't the funniest stuff I have ever heard David Cross do, that's not a crime. And it certainly didn't even begin to approach the level of pointless unfunny offensiveness to differences in gender/race/religion/creed that you typically hear at a club or on comedy central. To me, it sounded like global climate change was making DC a little depressed about the state of the nation and he got soap-boxy. he even acknowledged as much -- after yet another uneasy laugh from the audience he said something to the effect of "i know, i know, who invited captain bringdown?" then he went on to do a funny bit about his dog inadvertently jacking him off. (I think that might be what emily meant by "awkward comedy".) Great stuff!
"Jewish and Muslim beliefs aren't predicated on a patently ridiculous story."
Well, to be fair, it's virtually impossible to find any world views, particularly religious world views that aren't predicated on questionable fables. Even fables about conciousness and perceptions of rationality or "science". Even at the most basic levels of belief, we have to suspect personal logic fallacies. E.g.,
http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/SchwitzThemes/Phenomenknowledge.html
Even some decent neuroscience supports the fact that the same brain function of faith in supernatural stories is utilized in belief in a "scientific" worldview.
http://neuroeconomics.typepad.com/neuroeconomics/2006/11/for_the_love_of.html#trackback
I think everyone's beliefs, especially the more confident they are about them (whether atheist or mormons), should be made fun of. Including my own. That's not to say we should be mean, but humor is a good way to gain perspective.
I'll echo what Katie said above. I also was at the show, and enjoyed it. David Cross's set was certainly the most acerbic, and I found it very funny. The audience had more uneasy laughs during his set than anyone elses, but I didn't think they were unreceptive. The material was supposed to make us uncomfortable.
I'm not quite sure what he accomplishes by waving around a possible libel suit, if that's really David Cross. But when I read Emily's review I thought to myself that she didn't mention that the mormonism bit was done in the context of atheists not being considered capable of holding office in this country, while theists with very strange beliefs somehow are.
Comedians aren't supposed to make us all feel comfortable. Bill Hicks and Lenny Bruce were all about the pointed rant.
There's a reason most of these -ist writers aren't writing their reviews for better-paying markets, and it can be found in the sheer awkwardness of every other sentence of this review.
i'm with you, molly. emily attended the show, thought DC crossed some lines, and has a right to say so. it doesnt mean that she doesn't have a sense of humor. She isn't calling for a ban on DC or all stand-up or anything ridiculous. She is just publishing an opinion about some things that she didn't find funny. Opinion. So what?
I agree that the heart of observational comedy is in pointing out the lunacy in everyday things. We just need to be careful not to use "comedy" as a shield to say whatever you want. It's ok to say mormonism is dumb. And make fun of it. And the dumb things you see mormons do. AS SOON as you say ANY"ONE" who believes X is dumb.. that's bigotry. Saying that a person's belief system lacks any internal logic, is bigotted. I think that is all Emily is trying to say here.
This is f-cking awesome:
"There's a reason most of these -ist writers aren't writing their reviews for better-paying markets, and it can be found in the sheer awkwardness of every other sentence of this review."
I'm getting a plaque made with that inscribed on it to put above my computer. What inspiration!
Oh please. The minute comics aren't allowed to point out giant hulking flaws in religious dogma, then we're all in a lot of trouble..
If your religion is the universal truth you say it is, then what's to defend? When's the last time you heard about a bunch of particle physicists writing letters demanding that nobody be allowed to publicly question string theory..
Please revel in your correctness and let we the unenlightened masses writhe in our confusion.
digg this!
http://digg.com/celebrity/David_Cross_v_SFist_com
Dear god SF, relax. Emily's allowed to express her opinon about an event as she remembers it, and it's fucking great that David Cross responded. Didn't he say all that needed to be said? No need to attack the entire -ist network. But thanks for the love.
All you defenders of DC (and those who are ripping on the writer) are missing the point. She never said it was wrong to make fun of religions. She never even defended Mormons. She said that the way he did it wasn't funny. David Cross of Arrested Development was funny because he DIDN'T say the punchline, he allowed the audience to figure it out for themselves (which makes it twice as funny). When you talk all about the stupidity of a religion and then have to end it by saying, "see how stupid they are!" just shows how poorly you set up the joke. "see how stupid they are" isn't a punchline, it's a biggoted remark. Give me a punchline and I'll laugh. Give me a biggoted remark and I'll call you a bigot. It's very simple.
I don't think that this review is trying to tell us that comics can't point out flaws in religious dogma. It is not saying, "make fun of anything else you want, just leave those mormons alone." it is just what emily said - showing why something is ridiculous can be comedy, but telling you it's dumb is more of a soap-box lecture. that applies to mormonism or any other ism.
I missed the set but I'll go ahead and say what we're all thinking anyway, Mormons ARE batshit crazy! At least David Cross is funny in his bigotry, have you ever met a funny Mormon? I'm guessing no.